Proper engine cooling
Proper engine cooling
My issue has been two fold. Firstly, i've been having a cooling issue with my Nasa TT/Super Touring Evo9 over the past few years. I know the OEM radiator is quite stout, and I didn't want to add weight and upgrade. The fact of the matter is the intercooler takes up a lot of the air flow for the radiator. My first setup consisted of the oem fans, and the oem heat shields. With this setup, I didn't have many cooling issues at ~340hp. Meaning temp on the block gauge stayed in the middle and temp coming out of the block was ~220deg on a hot day/hot lap. I then migrated to Water/Wetter (safety) and e85. With this I saw no change really in the temps here in FL tracks. Jobs relocated me to the middle of the country and the time came when I had to start nitpicking about the weight up front and pickup HP in order to be competitive with the Vette's and Porsche's. The obvious stuff was unused brackets and shields. Last year myself and EvoD took off the front A/C fan and the oem heat shields to shave weight (among 65lbs elsewhere, they know their stuff). We also replaced the "puller" fan in front of the intake pipe with a flex-a-lite slim 12" fan that was more capable. Taking it to Hallett saw temps coming out of the block (upper hose) reaching ~240deg. Using the same setup in Oct at Sebring saw the same temps and even 245-250. The weight we saved was right, but we needed to get cooling back. Alas new jobs took me out of the TX region and back to FL.
Secondly, I've always had to drag blowers/fans with me to the track to pump air into the oil cooler/intercooler in the pits after a session to bring the temps back down in a safe manner before I shut the car off. This is especially painful if your group has "download sessions" and you don't have time to tinker and babysit the car on your own.
Note: The tunes (EvoD and Diiirk) are spot on and very reliable. The problem is in TT or HPDE you do some hot laps and cool laps, which it would be fine with. In a race or if you drive like I do to simulate it, your at 10/10th's like your being chased by a herd of elephants. I need the car cooling to stand up to the Super Touring standard.
Solution:
A local shop set me up with a dual relay direct switch for the fans, nicely tucked and ran, bypassing the ECU switches and heavy gear. We tried a standard 12" slim fan pusher in the A/C's place, but it still didn't push enough CFM to make much of a difference in this heat let alone at rest. ~1150cfm.
Enter TheFanMan. http://www.the-fan-man.com/
In my searching, I came across a lot of the SCCA/NASA racing Honda guys and what they were using for 12-13" fans that didn't take the power of the sun or weigh as much as a building. The universal answer was the Spal VA13-AP70/LL-63S Fan (13" HP Curved Blade). At just over 5lbs and a whooping 1710cfm, 12 volts, pushing, and SPAL's legendary waterproof/long life motors, it was an easy sell. Searching Spal's website I found the part number 30102045, however they want 170+ bucks for the thing. Further searching brought me to The Fan Man, where he sells the same fan for $112.50. A few emails and prompt responses I found the better nylon mounting rods, the fan I wanted, AND a new OIL COOLER FAN. Spal sells this 6.5" pusher, 12v, 330cfm fan dubbed 30100403. This fits like a glove in front of the oil cooler. Other people could get the puller and put it behind, but I have concerns from tire debries and brake heat so it needs to stay up front. Again SPAL sells for $80, FanMan sells for $56.
Using AWD's wiring, I connected the two new fans, wrapped everything, and HOLY SH*T. Houston, we have air flow. Onto the meat and potatoes:
Side to side with room to spare
Sh*tty pic of the 13", but you get the idea (iphone)
Clearance with 3.5" intercooler
Video of the fans in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNsjN5GznP4
So as you can see, flick of a switch and I can run away to my download with 0 worries about the temp. I can also run MUCH cooler at the track. Track event coming up in about 6 weeks, add to this once I get results.
Thanks to:
TheFanMan
KevinD of EvoD
Mike and Hermie @ AWD Motorsports
Secondly, I've always had to drag blowers/fans with me to the track to pump air into the oil cooler/intercooler in the pits after a session to bring the temps back down in a safe manner before I shut the car off. This is especially painful if your group has "download sessions" and you don't have time to tinker and babysit the car on your own.
Note: The tunes (EvoD and Diiirk) are spot on and very reliable. The problem is in TT or HPDE you do some hot laps and cool laps, which it would be fine with. In a race or if you drive like I do to simulate it, your at 10/10th's like your being chased by a herd of elephants. I need the car cooling to stand up to the Super Touring standard.
Solution:
A local shop set me up with a dual relay direct switch for the fans, nicely tucked and ran, bypassing the ECU switches and heavy gear. We tried a standard 12" slim fan pusher in the A/C's place, but it still didn't push enough CFM to make much of a difference in this heat let alone at rest. ~1150cfm.
Enter TheFanMan. http://www.the-fan-man.com/
In my searching, I came across a lot of the SCCA/NASA racing Honda guys and what they were using for 12-13" fans that didn't take the power of the sun or weigh as much as a building. The universal answer was the Spal VA13-AP70/LL-63S Fan (13" HP Curved Blade). At just over 5lbs and a whooping 1710cfm, 12 volts, pushing, and SPAL's legendary waterproof/long life motors, it was an easy sell. Searching Spal's website I found the part number 30102045, however they want 170+ bucks for the thing. Further searching brought me to The Fan Man, where he sells the same fan for $112.50. A few emails and prompt responses I found the better nylon mounting rods, the fan I wanted, AND a new OIL COOLER FAN. Spal sells this 6.5" pusher, 12v, 330cfm fan dubbed 30100403. This fits like a glove in front of the oil cooler. Other people could get the puller and put it behind, but I have concerns from tire debries and brake heat so it needs to stay up front. Again SPAL sells for $80, FanMan sells for $56.
Using AWD's wiring, I connected the two new fans, wrapped everything, and HOLY SH*T. Houston, we have air flow. Onto the meat and potatoes:
Side to side with room to spare
Sh*tty pic of the 13", but you get the idea (iphone)
Clearance with 3.5" intercooler
Video of the fans in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNsjN5GznP4
So as you can see, flick of a switch and I can run away to my download with 0 worries about the temp. I can also run MUCH cooler at the track. Track event coming up in about 6 weeks, add to this once I get results.
Thanks to:
TheFanMan
KevinD of EvoD
Mike and Hermie @ AWD Motorsports
Last edited by Balrok; Jan 1, 2012 at 01:31 PM.
Nice. That one relay looks like it's coming apart in your pic. Where do you have it located?
Do you have something special for a wheel well liner (behind the oil cooler)? I wasn't sure but it looked interesting in your vid.
Do you have something special for a wheel well liner (behind the oil cooler)? I wasn't sure but it looked interesting in your vid.
I shoulda guessed you guys would pick those apart 
The relay's not coming apart, there's a screw hole that i've got it mounted to in the upper left where it reaches a bit but it's much more stable against the frame. I've fixed it, It's not going anywhere trust me. The wheel well is....uh....modified. The wheel wells were actually removed due to extensive modifications to run certain size rubber. I've since copied the evo X flow arrangements - but instead of a plastic piece of sh*t, i've got a metal piece of sh*t. Totally cheap, sacrifical, and durable. It somewhat keeps the heat from the cooler away from the tire, the rubber/rocks away from the cooler, and the heat from the brakes away from the cooler, while allowing air flow through both. I had the vent from my Dad's shop, cost me a couple screws and some welding
The relay's not coming apart, there's a screw hole that i've got it mounted to in the upper left where it reaches a bit but it's much more stable against the frame. I've fixed it, It's not going anywhere trust me. The wheel well is....uh....modified. The wheel wells were actually removed due to extensive modifications to run certain size rubber. I've since copied the evo X flow arrangements - but instead of a plastic piece of sh*t, i've got a metal piece of sh*t. Totally cheap, sacrifical, and durable. It somewhat keeps the heat from the cooler away from the tire, the rubber/rocks away from the cooler, and the heat from the brakes away from the cooler, while allowing air flow through both. I had the vent from my Dad's shop, cost me a couple screws and some welding
Last edited by Balrok; Feb 2, 2011 at 08:39 PM.
matt, are you running a turbo timer with it? that would be an easy way to keep the fluids flowing through the coolers when its cooling off without having to baby-sit it. additionally some of them are temperature controlled.
looks good though! i was just chatting with Mike@awd the other day, awsome to see them venturing into the Road racing scene!!!
looks good though! i was just chatting with Mike@awd the other day, awsome to see them venturing into the Road racing scene!!!
very good info, thanks for sharing.
I've been amazed at the cooling capacity of the stock setup. I'm sure I'm not driving nearly as hard as you are in a w2w race, but @ 320ish whp coolant temps on tracks here in the NE rarely exceed 198*f for a 30 minute HPDE session.
I've been amazed at the cooling capacity of the stock setup. I'm sure I'm not driving nearly as hard as you are in a w2w race, but @ 320ish whp coolant temps on tracks here in the NE rarely exceed 198*f for a 30 minute HPDE session.
Trending Topics
I can't imagine running the coolant as high as 240* F! The slightly thicker and more efficient cores from Koyo and CBRD are well worth the slight weight hit in exchange for a bit more cooling capacity. I guess you will find out if the fans were enough to get you back to safety.
Good to know. I had the same issues, went to a mishimoto, stuffed Styrofoam around the edges of the radiator to create a high pressure zone, gutted the AC fan (because it comes on at the same time as the rad fan with the AC fuse out - so I didn't want to get rid of it), got a ralliart thermostat, and now I'm golden. I now get up to a max of 190F.
Also I agree that a turbo timer is a good buy. Just walk away from it.
Always did wonder if there was a good oil cooler fan though. I googled and found this: http://www.a1electric.com/spal/specs/30100402-0403.pdf
Looks like it's more like 7" in diameter on the inside of the shroud. The motor appears to be about 4" in diameter (can't really tell from the drawing) The math then works out that the open area of the fan is about 0.17998 sqft which means at 330cfm the airflow through the fan is 1833ft/min (20.8mph). This means that the pusher fan becomes a restriction at just 21mph. I'm not going to tell you one way or the other as empirical data will speak more loudly than my numbers but this is the reason I haven't gone this route yet.
CFM only tells part of the story. You always have to convert to MPH most especially when you're looking at a pusher fan. Thats why old(ish) cars with mechanical fans (think 90s, not 70s) had viscous clutches. They are meant to kick out when speeds get high because the air coming through the radiator often outspeeds the fan, and the fan just becomes a restriction at that point. Please understand I'm not trying to muddy up your thread... It's just that I'm a mechanical engineer who specializes in rotating equipment. These principals are very near and dear to me. Again, if you've found it works then more power to you.
Also I agree that a turbo timer is a good buy. Just walk away from it.
Always did wonder if there was a good oil cooler fan though. I googled and found this: http://www.a1electric.com/spal/specs/30100402-0403.pdf
Looks like it's more like 7" in diameter on the inside of the shroud. The motor appears to be about 4" in diameter (can't really tell from the drawing) The math then works out that the open area of the fan is about 0.17998 sqft which means at 330cfm the airflow through the fan is 1833ft/min (20.8mph). This means that the pusher fan becomes a restriction at just 21mph. I'm not going to tell you one way or the other as empirical data will speak more loudly than my numbers but this is the reason I haven't gone this route yet.
CFM only tells part of the story. You always have to convert to MPH most especially when you're looking at a pusher fan. Thats why old(ish) cars with mechanical fans (think 90s, not 70s) had viscous clutches. They are meant to kick out when speeds get high because the air coming through the radiator often outspeeds the fan, and the fan just becomes a restriction at that point. Please understand I'm not trying to muddy up your thread... It's just that I'm a mechanical engineer who specializes in rotating equipment. These principals are very near and dear to me. Again, if you've found it works then more power to you.
Last edited by honki24; Feb 4, 2011 at 04:45 AM.
I thought about that. I wasn't too impressed with the motor being so big either but then again spal's hardly ever fail so there's a reason i'm sure. Calling around I found a lot of guys using this as a pusher on motorcycles/atv's, so it can't be THAT bad. If the oil cooler was up front with nothing in the way I think it would do more harm VS being tucked behind the bumper like it is. So we got a 50/50 shot, one way to find out . We could also flip it around behind the cooler/or get a puller.
. We could also flip it around behind the cooler/or get a puller.
Last edited by Balrok; Feb 4, 2011 at 05:29 AM.
I can't imagine running the coolant as high as 240* F! The slightly thicker and more efficient cores from Koyo and CBRD are well worth the slight weight hit in exchange for a bit more cooling capacity. I guess you will find out if the fans were enough to get you back to safety.
They were tested by import tuner and they outperformed the koyo, mishi, oem...etc...
sustained load long durations runs were done and so forth.
We run our 1" thick rad with 50/50 mix on many cars.. we also have our 1.25", 1.5" and double pass applications.
At CBRD no one clients needs are the same as another... so each one is hand picked (and built) to those specifications!
Cheers
cb
Two questions:
1. Is it possible to change the thermal switch to make the fan kick on much earlier than the factory settings? I'm not even sure what the temps the fans kick on, but it probably would help to have the fan kick on at a much lower temp to prevent engine from even rising as high.
2. For aftermarket slim fans, are you guys using a higher amp relay to take full advantage of the power of the aftermarket fan? My buddy has one of the 2500cfm Zirgo fans on his car, but the factory relay will not allow the fan to run at that speed. I also have the one that comes with the CBRD radiator, and I'm not even sure if I'm taking full advantage of it.
1. Is it possible to change the thermal switch to make the fan kick on much earlier than the factory settings? I'm not even sure what the temps the fans kick on, but it probably would help to have the fan kick on at a much lower temp to prevent engine from even rising as high.
2. For aftermarket slim fans, are you guys using a higher amp relay to take full advantage of the power of the aftermarket fan? My buddy has one of the 2500cfm Zirgo fans on his car, but the factory relay will not allow the fan to run at that speed. I also have the one that comes with the CBRD radiator, and I'm not even sure if I'm taking full advantage of it.
You could do the same on the EVO if you can find the correct parts.