Street/Track capable Turbo??
Oct 11, 2011, 06:57 AM
#16
2.3 engine, I think if you run anything other than an FP Red you'd be absolutely nuts. That's what was on Project White and is my number one suggestion for stock appearing turbos especially on a 2.3. Going with a GT30 is money down the drain.
Have your manifold ported, put the Red on and good 02 housing, I guarantee you will be happy!
Have your manifold ported, put the Red on and good 02 housing, I guarantee you will be happy!
Oct 11, 2011, 07:40 AM
#17
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Very cool, I didn't realize the A6s were DOT tires as I was talking about NT01s and R888s. A6 tires, light car (3000 pound range), and 360ish WHP seems like the perfect combo...since you get penalized for weight as you get lighter, I see no sense getting completely crazy and going much lighter than that...
Taking 3001 pounds as a base, here are what my calculations came out as:
Modified factor: 7.85-1 w/NT01s, R888s, A6s (DOT approved) - 9.5 rim and up to 275 tire width
Modified factor: 9.0-1 w/Hoosiers (non DOT approved slicks) - 9.5 rim and up to 275 tire width
Both of these power levels are easily obtainable with the stock turbo as has been said already...
Taking 3001 pounds as a base, here are what my calculations came out as:
Modified factor: 7.85-1 w/NT01s, R888s, A6s (DOT approved) - 9.5 rim and up to 275 tire width
Modified factor: 9.0-1 w/Hoosiers (non DOT approved slicks) - 9.5 rim and up to 275 tire width
Both of these power levels are easily obtainable with the stock turbo as has been said already...
Last edited by skidmarq; Oct 11, 2011 at 09:51 AM.
Oct 11, 2011, 11:57 AM
#18
2.3 engine, I think if you run anything other than an FP Red you'd be absolutely nuts. That's what was on Project White and is my number one suggestion for stock appearing turbos especially on a 2.3. Going with a GT30 is money down the drain.
Have your manifold ported, put the Red on and good 02 housing, I guarantee you will be happy!
Have your manifold ported, put the Red on and good 02 housing, I guarantee you will be happy!
and its dam cool that Buscher is chiming in on my little thread. Buscher u are the man! I love your new stroker monsters and I'd love to have one of your stage 3 heads one day. I've got one of your huge race FMIC's on the car
Last edited by ktk; Oct 11, 2011 at 12:01 PM.
Oct 11, 2011, 01:11 PM
#19
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Well, I think it really just depends on your goals. Running a large turbo, and getting it to run optimally, is likely going to put you in the TTU group (using NASA as example). You will be in the company of some real monster vehicles...
Oct 11, 2011, 03:11 PM
#20
I have seen quite a lot of this type of advice but here is the thing, my engine bay is far from stock appearing. There are no parts that move that came with the car OEM, there are no pipes that flow air that came with the car OEM lol! I have a T3 manifold already, is going back to a stocktype exhuast mani and stock frame turbo really a better option for performance and reliability than a proper full t3 manifold and t3 turbo?
and its dam cool that Buscher is chiming in on my little thread. Buscher u are the man! I love your new stroker monsters and I'd love to have one of your stage 3 heads one day. I've got one of your huge race FMIC's on the car
and its dam cool that Buscher is chiming in on my little thread. Buscher u are the man! I love your new stroker monsters and I'd love to have one of your stage 3 heads one day. I've got one of your huge race FMIC's on the car
What turbo is on the car now and why do you want to change it?
Oct 11, 2011, 03:18 PM
#21
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Im running the HTAgreen on my stock block 2.0.. When i upgrade to 2.3 this winter i think im going to stay with this turbo... Prolly gonna do the E85 thing and i believe this turbo will be perfect for 25lbs during roadrace conditions.. FWIW i made just over 400 wheel with the HTAgreen on 91oct @21 psi, so i think its a great choice for u
Oct 11, 2011, 03:22 PM
#22
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2.3 engine, I think if you run anything other than an FP Red you'd be absolutely nuts. That's what was on Project White and is my number one suggestion for stock appearing turbos especially on a 2.3. Going with a GT30 is money down the drain.
Have your manifold ported, put the Red on and good 02 housing, I guarantee you will be happy!
Have your manifold ported, put the Red on and good 02 housing, I guarantee you will be happy!
when you are driving the car full out, the red cant take the heat. the garrett BB cores are a far better choice for longevity. with that said, i'm hoping the new BB red does the trick for reliability. because your right that nothing comes close to power + spool for a red on a 2.3 for road racing (but i'm not willing to have the turbo rebuilt every time out).
Oct 11, 2011, 04:19 PM
#23
Here is some detail from the original post:
Car is a daily driven fully built 2.3L stroker that sees a lot of spirited driving and 5-7 track weekends a year. It is driven year around in all weather and does all the family duties as well.
Most recent time just to give an idea of what I do with the car is 1:19-1:20 at Putnam Park in full street trim on street tires.
The reason I bring this question to the Motorsport subforum is because I'm not looking for peak power/drag race/dyno queen status, I want a reliable roadcourse type transient response, quick spool, with similar power (400awhp on 93octane) to what I have now (old journal bearing 50 trim from 2005 long defunct shop).
Old turbo is leaking oil out of the hotside seals after 80k+ miles at 400whp and 5k+ track miles, it is time to upgrade and take advantage of much newer turbo technology. It has earned its retirement
The question is, has dual ball bearing, billet wheel, water or air cooled, tech been sufficiently tested in real world roadcourse type application? How much abuse can these fancy turbos take? Are they suited to drag racing application only or will they reliably make 400-500whp for 6+ hours in a weekend and then cold start and run daily driver duty on the normal days in any weather?
I'm leaning towards Garret GTX3076 or similar because they are a known turbo manufacturer who does all the typical in house OEM reliability testing... But any reliability info that any of you have on similar turbos from any manufacturer will be appreciated.
Please post from personal experience, I'm trying to avoid the baseless hearsay and biased opinions that plague these types of threads in the technical subforums
Thanks in advance
Most recent time just to give an idea of what I do with the car is 1:19-1:20 at Putnam Park in full street trim on street tires.
The reason I bring this question to the Motorsport subforum is because I'm not looking for peak power/drag race/dyno queen status, I want a reliable roadcourse type transient response, quick spool, with similar power (400awhp on 93octane) to what I have now (old journal bearing 50 trim from 2005 long defunct shop).
Old turbo is leaking oil out of the hotside seals after 80k+ miles at 400whp and 5k+ track miles, it is time to upgrade and take advantage of much newer turbo technology. It has earned its retirement
The question is, has dual ball bearing, billet wheel, water or air cooled, tech been sufficiently tested in real world roadcourse type application? How much abuse can these fancy turbos take? Are they suited to drag racing application only or will they reliably make 400-500whp for 6+ hours in a weekend and then cold start and run daily driver duty on the normal days in any weather?
I'm leaning towards Garret GTX3076 or similar because they are a known turbo manufacturer who does all the typical in house OEM reliability testing... But any reliability info that any of you have on similar turbos from any manufacturer will be appreciated.
Please post from personal experience, I'm trying to avoid the baseless hearsay and biased opinions that plague these types of threads in the technical subforums
Thanks in advance
To answer your questions though the current turbo is an old journal bearing modified 50 Trim that was put together back in 2005 by a now defunct shop as an experimental setup. It has given me a very reliable 400whp for 80K miles (car has 109k) and thousands of track miles with no issues and its recently started leaking oil from the hotside seal. I think its more than overdue for retirement, time to take advantage of 6 years of new technology
Essentially I'm looking to take advantage of new ball bearing tech, more efficient billet wheels, better cooling, overall smoothness, and power deliver characteristics of modern turbos. I want to improve transient response, improve spool, and increase area under the curves. As much as I'd like to be, I'm not competitive in any class of time trials as the car sits, it is too far modified to fit the rules and id end up in some crazy unlimited class I have no budget for so there is no official power limitation per se. I'm just not willing to sacrifice spool and response in the pursuit of power. Ideally I'd take a new turbo that can improve all three spool/response/and power while keeping reliability.
Car is a 2003 currently has a fully built motor JE Pistons/Eagle Rods/Kelford 272s/upgraded valvetrain, shep stage 3 5spd trans/780 inj/walbro 255. I never rev it higher than 7000rpm on track because I understand that revs are the enemy of reliability especially with stoker piston speeds. I got 80k miles (60k at 400whp) out of the stock clutch before building this motor and replacing it (it was fine when i took it out). Motor is in great shape and was within 1psi on a recent compression test. Car should be able to take whatever power these (relatively) small turbos can deliver on pump gas and still tracked and dailyed reliably with ease. Car is exclusively pump gas (93) and I'm looking for a turbo that will improve on this:
Last edited by ktk; Oct 11, 2011 at 04:28 PM.
Oct 11, 2011, 05:47 PM
#24
OK I read it again, still doesn't say T3 in it I gotcha though.
Honestly, the cheapest thing for you to do to improve on that and not exceed the limit of those Eagle rods is put your stock exhaust manifold and an FP Red on the car along with a SS 02 housing. I think that would be my choice and then sell off what you have. That's my two cents.
On our dyno that graph would be about 13% less than it is on a Dynojet, that means a Red would stomp that graph from the beginning to the end.
It may put you into a more normal looking category to open up some different classes to run in too.
I gotcha though. Honestly, the cheapest thing for you to do to improve on that and not exceed the limit of those Eagle rods is put your stock exhaust manifold and an FP Red on the car along with a SS 02 housing. I think that would be my choice and then sell off what you have. That's my two cents.
On our dyno that graph would be about 13% less than it is on a Dynojet, that means a Red would stomp that graph from the beginning to the end.
It may put you into a more normal looking category to open up some different classes to run in too.
Oct 11, 2011, 06:27 PM
#25
I say put a BW T3 EFR7064 on it. Flows as much as an FP Red (56#) and has a extremely low moment of inertia. It'll be the best for response and certainly meet your power requirements. Not only that but it's a much larger and durable CHRA compared to your stock appearing BB turbos.
Did I mention it has a Gamma Titanium turbine wheel?
An FP Red can't touch the 7064 in the spool department, but they're capable of the same amount of power output.
Did I mention it has a Gamma Titanium turbine wheel?
An FP Red can't touch the 7064 in the spool department, but they're capable of the same amount of power output.
Oct 12, 2011, 06:16 AM
#26
I say put a BW T3 EFR7064 on it. Flows as much as an FP Red (56#) and has a extremely low moment of inertia. It'll be the best for response and certainly meet your power requirements. Not only that but it's a much larger and durable CHRA compared to your stock appearing BB turbos.
Did I mention it has a Gamma Titanium turbine wheel?
An FP Red can't touch the 7064 in the spool department, but they're capable of the same amount of power output.
Did I mention it has a Gamma Titanium turbine wheel?
An FP Red can't touch the 7064 in the spool department, but they're capable of the same amount of power output.
I read up on the BW EFR turbos and the technology is amazing. Admittedly I'm a bit of tech nerd (engineer) and I love the idea of a EFR turbo. That said, it seems that there is limited feedback from users thus far (other than sierra sierra evo which is a bit extreme) and fitment with ac/ps and full radiator might be an issue?
Anybody who has more info on EFR turbos please chime in. Buscher do you have any experience with EFR's? What's your take?
Oct 12, 2011, 07:15 AM
#27
No experience with them nor input on my end. I don't just recommend something cause the write up on it sounds cool. I'd need on in my hand to run before I told someone to use it. I was interested in testing some turbos and spoke with BW on the turbos. The problem for me is multiple. Number one, they don't just bolt in place of a Garrett, so you can't do a simple swap to a normal T3 header. This means going through building a new turbo kit to even test them. Then if they work well you can't just sell one as an upgrade, the customers also have to get rid of their old kit and move on to a new kit. A few years ago that wasn't a problem, people were buying T3 turbo kits faster than we could build them. That trend has unfortunately stopped and most guys use these new bad *** turbos from FP like the Green/Red or Blacks. Those turbos have basically did away with the sale of T3 kits (as compared to a few years ago) So from my view of it, there are going to be a bunch of guys stuck with their T3 kits if they even want to move to something that may or may not be better. That makes for a very limited market.
The other problem is, last time I checked the turbo I would need to test on my own RS wasn't available yet, they have nothing out that would make the top end my car does now and also beat the low end and that is direct from BW rep. That puts me right back to recommending a Red to you.
The other problem is, last time I checked the turbo I would need to test on my own RS wasn't available yet, they have nothing out that would make the top end my car does now and also beat the low end and that is direct from BW rep. That puts me right back to recommending a Red to you.
Oct 12, 2011, 07:24 AM
#28
Check out the 7670 dyno results on a road race Evo built by Robi. 2mm larger compressor wheel than the hta green and it makes more power than the red ever has on way less boost. 600lb ft @ 4k and 640whp. With a stock intake manifold lol! And it did that with 30 psi not 40+
The results are there if you look, the 7064 will certainly rock the socks if anything out there in terms of response due to it's super low moi. Give full-race a call or check out their site for bw info. Www.full-race.com. Make an educated decision for yourself, instead of hearsay.
The 9180 is a competitor to the 67mm turbos out there and flows 94# per minute. Sierra Sierra's record breaking race car already proved it's capable of more power than the 67 mm variants available from garrett and pte... With far better reliability. Take it from them, they actually road race competitively!!!
The results are there if you look, the 7064 will certainly rock the socks if anything out there in terms of response due to it's super low moi. Give full-race a call or check out their site for bw info. Www.full-race.com. Make an educated decision for yourself, instead of hearsay.
The 9180 is a competitor to the 67mm turbos out there and flows 94# per minute. Sierra Sierra's record breaking race car already proved it's capable of more power than the 67 mm variants available from garrett and pte... With far better reliability. Take it from them, they actually road race competitively!!!
Last edited by R/TErnie; Oct 12, 2011 at 07:29 AM.
Oct 12, 2011, 09:19 AM
#29
Good point on that car Robi just did with most of our parts on it, from Robert's lips though, "It was on a Dynapak and we all know how they read." That was an impressive dyno chart though as far as curves go. Hard to beat a stock intake manifold, it's what I'm running on my RS now and my car makes 725 whp on OUR dyno at 32 psi of boost.
I have no issues with Garrett's reliability, rarely ever see a failure of an HTA T3 style turbo, if something doesn't go through them, which is no fault of the turbo, I can't remember the last one I saw with a problem.
I have no issues with Garrett's reliability, rarely ever see a failure of an HTA T3 style turbo, if something doesn't go through them, which is no fault of the turbo, I can't remember the last one I saw with a problem.
