Als is not shoot flames when you up shift... that is a well known fact, for a turbo or short exhaust equpped cars doing it, als or no als. This lenght of the flames is based on the tune. My car doesnt shoot flames any extra ordenery, i have als ....
also i known fact we Do get penalties every where vs domestic markets and german cars... basically to the point where is becomes at least questionable, why this rule actually get made?
there is no need to sugar coat it...
besides why and which sectioning body ever cared how much you have to maintain your car for racing vs they favored cars?
Rob

The rest of your comments about the evo... is basically shows how much you know about them.

 

This was in the slower class, a few years ago. It's hard to keep Speed World Challenge, Koni, Grand Am, etc all straight in my head.. but this was the class with the BMW 3 series, Acura TSX, that sort of thing.

 

You all know that the Subaru that runs in GS is on SMALLER tires they pretty much EVERY other car right? I believe it's on 245's when a majority are on 275's; and that's a hard mountain to overcome. Trust me, I tried that mountain this year to get around the weight penalty in NASA...

I also completely understand trying to be the first guy/team to put a car on the podium in an already established series. You think you have a good product and then the money starts pouring in and/or the rules get tweaked along the way. I would guess a new car to GS would need to run mid-pack laptimes for at least a 1/2 season before they'd even think about giving it something more (like more power or less weight).

As for the S197's; I don't recall any Mustang other than a Rousch car ever even finishing on the podium in the 2+ years I've been watching it. Anyone else? And I know they aren't a budget team. Billy's a hell of a driver; don't get me wrong. But the combination of a great crew, a good strong capable car, strategy and a capable driver all coming together on 1 team is difficult.

 

The Subaru's tires have little effect on the car itself. It's handling is the big advantage. So someone is going to tell me that it is easier to get ~400whp off a Subaru or Evo than it is with a Camaro, Mustang, or BMW? No. Wrong.

The reason they don't want cars breaking down all over the place is because it makes the series look bad. They are very concerned with their image, especially in the CTSCC races. They want good clean racing, not a car requiring a tow all the time. I used to work for a Mitsu tuner, work at the SimRaceway Mitsubishi school (with Evo X's), and owned an Evo 8. Let's be honest, they're not SUPER reliable. I seem to remember MANY Evo's coming in with broken gearboxes and I know we've had to do a fair amount of work on the school car drivetrains as well. To take a car that in stock trim runs close to 400hp and make it run for 3 hours is a lot easier than taking one that handles ~300hp do the same.

Again, the Subaru is a great race car. It is WELL down on power (and yes, some of this is due to the rules about altitude which I disagree with to an extent) but more of it has to do with reliability. I am good friends with both the drivers and they both comment on the fact that it's very hard to get that much power out of the car while keeping it cool in traffic and ensuring all the parts it sees a green flag with are on it at the checker.

You guys can wave your flag all day long, but I'm looking at physics and actual experience. The series is not "afraid" of the car. They are afraid that it will take constant work to get it even with the rest of the cars. Think about it: Grand-Am prides itself in making close racing. Despite failing on this front, it will not make them look good if 2/3 of the Japanese import cars with tiny engines but great handling fall apart every race. And finally, who is it going to impress? As was said, it seems Mitsu has no motorsport interests. Their time and money is much better spent trying to sell cars while in such hard times. Grand-Am likes to deal with manufacturers directly.

Please don't think I'm hating on Mitsu in any way. I have said many times that I would love an Evo X MR. The stuff we are able to do with them at the school is incredible. They are truly well engineered cars. I simply do not see the series allowing them to race and disagree with the idea that they think this big bad plastic and aluminum 4-cylinder car is going to trounce a Porsche.

 

Lol soooo much BS.

 

Convincing argument. How many Grand-Am races have you been in? How many event meetings have you been in? How many conversations have you had with people running relevant cars in Grand-Am? How many Grand-Am races have you even attended. Add up the numbers and get back to me.

 

Man, you throw together so much miss information about the evo, i have no desire to teach you from the basics._
If some one want to brake it down for you, good. You need start looking around about evos and track racing. You clearly have 0 idea about reilabilty - performance - etc about evos.
I wont get into argument with you, based on your knolidge about the car and history of that, makes no sense for me. One thing you know about what happens in the usa, the whole other what is happening around the world
I think you should educated yourself first about evos and track races ( like the new ralliart in the 24 hr race for reilability ,australia better track race like ga evos in it etc. ) Someof the news i think actually made it to this forum too, so you dont need to go far...
Before you start making comments like that, make sure you learn about the evo...

Press on
Rob

Ps : this guy actually a good example of the majority of domestic car racers, untill they find them self face to face one competitive evo... lol i know i been there ...

 

Mis-information? I don't know what the rest of the world's road racing Evos are doing, but I don't care. The question was aimed at CTSCC. This class aims to use stock components where applicable and as often as possible. In a Trans-Am-esque racing series, the cars are to be close to the production model to fuel inter-manufacturer rivalries. This is the fun of it. I work at a school using STOCK Evo X's, both MR and GSR models. They see 100% track time, usually 15-20 minutes at a time, rarely flat-out, and almost never in other car's slipstream. Our school cars rarely break, but when they do, it's almost always something in the clever drivetrains. I am not going off facts here, but I have a feeling, seeing how the Subaru has failed in some areas, so will the Mitsubishi by either getting too hot (turbo + small engine = heat) or wearing out drivetrain bits. This is not a fun issue for Grand-Am. As I've said, they don't like spending their time throwing more and more aftermarket parts at one manufacturer, just so it can play Trans-Am car.

Performance of the Evo... let's see. 291hp from a 2.0L turbocharged 4-cylinder. Camaro: 426hp from a 6.2L N/A V8. Mustang Boss 302R: 444hp from a 5.0L N/A V8. Porsche 911S: 400hp from a 3.8L H6... seeing where I'm going with this? The series does not like letting a company put MASSIVE engine-performance-enhancing parts just to keep up, especially when, and this is from a group of people looking at running the Evo, they don't think it will hold up reliability-wise. Now they wouldn't say that on their own, it probably went with testing, as I know they purchased a car for this reason.

Again, I'm just trying to compare lemons to limes here. The Subaru has big issues with never getting enough power, less due to the series (with the exception of the high-altitude tracks) and more to do with the fact that they struggle to keep the engine cool in traffic. When you put 40-something cars in front of you, they create a lot of heat. Heat = BAD for turbo cars. The Subaru more recently, now that they have sorted out the engine for the most part after 3 years of development, has started breaking drivetrains, specifically rear differentials. I'm not saying the Evo wouldn't make it, I'm giving you reasons why the series wouldn't allow them in. Watching the only Subaru and the only Evo smolder with broken differentials would not make the series or the manufacturers look very good. Keep in mind that the Subaru was sort of grandfathered in since they no longer were competitive in ST-class with the Legacy and it has taken them a LONG time to sort the car out enough to even finish a race in the top 15. I love the guys over at Phoenix Racing, but they do struggle with the platform, as can be apparent.

You can tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I have owned an older Evo, have heard my whole life "yeah, Mitsus are great except for the 3-bolt-whatevers," and, "Just don't buy a 6-speed Evo", and I also, as I've stated, WORK WITH MITSUBISHIS AT THEIR RACING SCHOOL in the EVO PROGRAM.

Just out of curiosity, what are the basics of Evo reliability and performance relavent to Grand-Am's Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge? Why would Grand-Am be shivering in their boots from the car's relative performance,which for the record, is averaging 114hp less in stock trim than the rest of the field excluding the Subaru, 94hp including the Subaru?

Again, I don't want to bash the Evo. I just hate it when people can't just win their own battles and are tricked into thinking that a mostly stock Evo can keep up with a mostly stock Porsche 911S in a Grand-Am race. It just doesn't fit the mold. Rally, yes, Evo is king. Rally-rocket road car, again, incredible there. Right now I race a Chevrolet Camaro SS. The thing is great in some places, less in others. I'm not going to say it can go dominate a rally stage and that FiA is just terrified of the big 6.2L engine. That would be silly, wouldn't it?

P.S.
"This guy" used to race BMWs and take his Evo 8 to the track quite often. Don't bundle me with "domestic car racers". The Evo is great, but mods to mods, many cars will trounce it. The AWD system is outstanding, but it still is governed by physics. I had a great time beating doctors and college professors in 911's and Mustangs with the Evo, but I had my *** handed to me a couple times by bone-stock Z06's and Vipers, not to mention mildly modified BMW M3's. I'm giving you information that I have gathered from being in the trenches, not proposing paper stacks of artificial information about series and their fears about AWD. It is an advantage when utilized correctly, but it also means twice as many pieces made of metal to break and twice as much oil to cook. Again, watch a damn Grand-Am race and tell me what you think. Sorry to make this post so long, but I'm getting irritated by the same vague comments coming up from the same person.

 

Awesome posts, MBellRacing, it's great to actually read facts from an insider, not just speculation and fanboyism.

 

Yeah, this is not the first Robevo thread where he has hinted that he knows everything about everything

 

I look forward to the rest of this comical arguement.

My take on this.... I'd love to see en Evo run and be competetive in a 3+ hour race in the Grand-Am series. I just don't see it happening with the ruleset. For it to be even close to being competetive it would need factory support.... not gonna happen.... larger turbo, intercooler, oil cooler, a diff cooler or two, trans cooler.... it's going to take a lot more equipment to just keep it cool enough to last the race.... in the end I think it would be TOO HEAVY and TOO UNDER POWERED, lets be realistic.

You buy a car and build it to whatever race series gives you the best shot at being competetive and wining.... Grand Am is not that place for the Evo with the given ruleset

Let the arguement continue......

 

Both are valid really from each point of view. If that's Matt Bell then yes, he has more experience then all of us put together when it comes to what it takes road racing sedans in a professional US series. Rob has a ton of rally info/knowledge OUTSIDE the US. Matt's actually a really cool guy, as is Rob in real life (never in person but had several conversations in the past). Put you two in a room together and you'd either have a well thought out design or lots of blood on the floor

I think Rob's point of view has some merit in the fact that a lot of the "reliability" has been resolved for some time outside our borders. Does that make it affordable or as fast as compared to a 302S turn key PURPOSE built and FACTORY supported here....ya likely not from a sponsors/owner eyes. COULD you bring one of those here and whoop all of the mustangs and porsche's? Ya maybe, but nobody will, no time. We ALL wish that though. Lots of you just need to start putting track suspension and cages on and come out to play, and bring your winning lottery tickets so we can make our own damn Evo series BESIDES time attack .

And if that is the other Matt, bring out your old Turner BMW or that Camero, I want a piece Loved watching ya.

 

that is the exact reason why i wont comment here anymore, this is my last post here about this silly argument.
If you think i am bs and talk from my *** , there is no place for me to talk with him or you about this. You guys can keep dreaming and follow the Grand am rules and guys, You will never see an Evo run , and meanly because of them and they made up rules. Not because the Evo is not capable . It is proven other wise many many years in the row now...

Here is one of the winners of the 12 hour "grand am style" if you wish racing, since a room too small and walls stops at Grand Am racing, where can you find BMW , V8 holdens etc... well... the Evo won.
There is a good reason is why i put it up here this. Only because its a 12 hour race, where based on Grand Am expert, the evo should die out in the firts 3 hours at the end of the pack... lol And not because it is actually won the race, i actually didnt knwo that before.
If you need more info , feel free to look it up, "i am just a phony know everything guy", so i dont think my opinion is matter here anymore.




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Let me high light some of the things he put it up as a fact, and you guys decide. I put it out my opinion based on his at least very skatchy comments about evos.
The best he even states about himself, he doesnt care whats going on every were else ,where basically they let the evo run by fair rules. SO he doesnt know who they doing there...
So he has infos only here, where actually evos doesnt run. I am sure i am not the only one who see the conflict here...
So if you just step back for a moment and relax a bit, and think about this, he makes comments based on his assumption , since he didnt ever saw one properly build managed evo in a type of race what he is doing. But he knows....
Mitsubishi has a big time commitment in the motorsport , but not in the USA , hence
that is why they didnt even came here before Evo 8. That is the 8th generation of evo, ladies and gentelman. All over the world you could by them, and race them...Which they did.
No one want to spend money in a not so friendly enviroment. Even Canada supports Mitsubishi racers. Talking about support.

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If you want to talk about rally, first why Mitsubishi doesnt support USA rally? one reason its the only country let 2.5L turbo cars run in AWD ( because of the Subaru USA/ RA) Every where else this is non sense.
About your big engine, there are many tarmac rallies , where GT3 porsches and aston martins, 370Z etc running just FYI. FIA not terrifyed by the camaro SS .. lol
Just for the sound and for you guys

Even in here the states you can run your car , its fun. 450 miles two day rally . its awesome. Only tarmac , public roads .
August 23-24 rally new york. you would love it, you can destroy everybody there. You have a big chance since we do run Monticello race way too, and all evos are resticted . Means they are barely, If over 300 whp. You wont be the only big engine there though. There are hill climb car etc coming there with a lot more whps.



Rob

 

thank you,
nice to hear , he is a nice guy, and i bealive you! seriuosly
Rob

 

Oooookay. I don't think you're talking from your ***. I think you're merely misunderstanding what I'm saying. The CTSCC race is mimicking the old Trans-Am races where guys like Donahue, Bucknum, Penske, Parnelli Jones, etc cut their teeth and competed in epic races-- Camaro against Mustang, a spackling of Porsches. The allowance of the Subaru was because they already had a relationship with SRRT/ICY-Phoenix from ST class racing. They moved to the STi and up to GS. It was a very long, uphill battle to get the car right, and now that it has an acceptable amount of power, it turns out the stock parts aren't made to handle it for 3 hours. This will now require more help from the series.

I did my research. Those Evos in the Australian Manufacturers Championship are close to stock, competing NOT against M3's and Holdens, but in the same class as things like 335's and 135's, cars that have similar wheel horsepower. The horsepower is close to stock, as are the drivetrains. This, I can believe will work for reliability as it is how Mitsubishi designed it: to handle ~300hp-- similar to my point of saying the other cars in CTSCC GS-class are able to better handle the appropriate 400-450whp.

If YOU do your own research and look through your own example, the Dubai 24H Ralliart, you'll see that it finished, but many laps down due to... What? Drivetrain failure.

You also COMPLETELY misunderstood my comment about FiA and the Camaro. I didn't mean make a new class. In fact, with your explanation for why I am incorrect, you actually proved me right: You can just make a class where every car works. The Evo does not work, in it's current trim, in GS-class racing, which is in the U.S. of A, thus I speak of HERE, not in Australia or anywhere else.

If the US rally rules made it "fair" for the Mitsus, then the 2.5L guys would complain that they can't race. You're back in the same place, my friend. You have this amazing car that can't compete, so the series is clearly unfair. To your point, the Evo can make AMAZING power and NEVER breaks, so why can't the 2.0L engine take down the boxer 2.5s?

Again (I do repeat a lot, don't I?... feel I have to...), the Evo is an outstanding rally rocket. They have come a long way since the DSM 3-bolt whatevers and 6-speed eruptions. They can take a lot of abuse in most conditions. I think the verdict I see all over the place is that they are decent stock-power endurance racers, and great high-powered sprint racers, but not much in between. That's fine. The Camaro weighs as much as a small moon because it's made to handle massive torque and to tip over redwoods with it's exhaust note. They are two very different cars. It would take a lot of engineering to make either do what the other can. This is only my point. GS is not Sport Compact Car-class, it stands for Grand Sport. As sporty as an Evo can be, it is not GRAND.

Point and match.