Rallying is hard in a different way. The lack of traffic is a big one. It's hard as hell to keep a car cool when you have major sources of heat all around it and blocking any fresh air from getting to the radiators or intercoolers.

 

You too. Lol..
Subaru can run in the series then evo could too. Specially when subaru can even won a race.
That is moral of the story. Same car same class. You can bring up all those long and nice stories. Good reading , but doesnt change anything about the fact : subaru sti and evo is one category, and usually the evo comes up on top. More times other words.
You guys like it or not.

About both of your personal attacks, please keep for yourself, those doesnt win arguments, just shows weakness on the subject.

 

OK, start a team and run in the Continental series. Prove everyone wrong. Subaru has one win, on their home track, among years of problems.

 

I know a lot of the money can be in the engines. But I remember a walkaround video with the Stevenson Camaro (below) and he noted how the engine was nearly stock in those cars. GS class doens't allow a whole lot. They claim the engine (+ wet sump) and trans is nearly stock. Full suspension and brakes.

Stevenson Camaro - GS car walkaround:

Their Rolex GT car is a full tube framed and all carbon fiber. Sequential gearbox; adjustable suspension.

------------------------
I've seen BMW's for sale (formerly GS cars) for $40-60k actually. A spare fresh sunbuilt engine might be listed for $20-25k extra.

 

Fascinating discussion even with the bickering. I have to say that MBell has given a great overview of the series. I have followed the series for years when it was the SCCA World Challenge and then the Koni series. As some background to this, I was fortunate to have been a teenager in the 1960's and I have seen Trans Am and Can Am races in person.

The appeal of both GS and ST classes is that they are production based, much like the original Trans Am series. If you go back to 1966-67, the Trans Am cars were not too far removed from their street counterparts. By 1968 however, the cars began to move more towards pure race cars, although they were still production based. Acid dipping entire shells [Bud Moore, Team Shelby, Team Penske], 3/4 bodies [Smokey Yunick] were but a few tricks employed by the teams. The motors however were highly regulated as were the transmissions, axles and even aero parts like front and rear spoilers. Cars like the Z/28 and Boss 302, Javelin, AAR 'Cuda, Challenger T/A were homologated exclusively for the Trans Am series.

This brings us to the discussion regarding why the Evo isn't being raced. In a way, the Evo is more of a tuner car, much like the Honda Civic Si, Kia Forte, Mini Cooper, Acura TSX, RX-8's etc. To put the Evo up against GS cars like the Boss 302R, Camaro, Porsche 911, BMW M3 is not right either as the it is really not in their league. The Evo kind of falls between the two classes. Too bad there isn't a third category, an ST plus if you will.

Subaru has decided to support a team, which is great. Mitsubishi seems more reticent to support the Evo, which is kind of sad. I am sure that a factory backed Mitsubishi team would probably do as well or better than the STi. However, both the STi and Evo need to be pumped up on steroids to stay with the other cars in GS. I think MBell put things into perspective when he said that Grand Am doesn't really want cars that have to be heavily modified so that they can compete in the series. Kind of defeats the whole purpose of the series.

 

I found qualifying times for the CTSCC at Mid Ohio from Sept 2011. Pole was a 1:31.2 with the top 14 cars running 1:31x.

For reference, in that same month on the same track in the same config, I ran a 1:32.8 in my Evo and it's far far from stock power. At that time I was pumping about 350whp on a MD - probably 380whp on a Dynojet; more than 100whp over stock.

My aero is 100% stock so that would match up. The Subaru runs on 245 continental tires which are basically 245 Hoosier R6's - wheras I had larger & stickier 255 A6's. I'm sure they have more into their suspension than my $2400 off-the-shelf AST's and I'm sure their rollcage provides a ton more rigidity than the 4pt rollbar I had in. But it's a comparison.

1:26 --> Mike Skeen qualifying #2 in WCGT ni 2011 in a Corvette at Mid Ohio!


Another comparison - Road America:

• CTSCC - June 2011 - pole was a 2:24.5. Top 4 running 2:24x; top 11 running 2:25x
• SCCA T2 - 2011 - Marty ran I think a 2:29x and qualified #2 for the National race to a Boss 302
• NASA TTA - Oct 2011 - 2:29x in my Evo my first day ever at the track
• NASA TTA - Oct 2011 - 2:25x - by a Corvette

You can see the difference that HP makes on a track like Road America. The Evo would be at a immediate disadvantage in HP, Aerodynamics & gearing. Road America, Daytona, VIR - all on the CTSCC schedule - would be bad for it!

 

Hey, that's my car!

Rob clearly doesn't get it. YES, in a perfect world, where the STi fits the series, so should the Evo. The series will not let it happen, and has less to do with sponsorship, more to do with the fact that they don't want another 3 years of slow development for a car they don't feel is within the usual flavor of the series.

As Boomn29 pointed out, these cars are becoming very fast. A lot of their lap time is helped greatly by the horsepower (and relatively flat torque curve, as we strive for in the 'Maro) they are extracting from these cars now. As the V8's all get going faster, it gets ever harder for small 4-cylinder turbo motors to keep up without further increasing their chances of breakage.

The Nissan is allowed headers and a much higher rev limit. I think that's it besides tuning-- maybe underdrive pullies and other little inconsequential things.. Their big advantages are aero and cornering speed. The Nissan in a draft is like a fart that won't leave a room, especially behind our Camaro. When it comes to braking, the Camaro is no longer the end-all. The Nissan can hold on in a draft, pop out at the last moment, and duck under for late braking very effectively. Just for everyone's reference.

 

no, i got it after two inteligent answere from Boom 29 and SamsonevoX. That is why i didnt say anything after.
They did explain it. They didnt say because Evo has a none reilable engine- plastic and all those sketchy comments etc.

The question was not : Evo will be a champ or beats every body neither is a proper car for the series...
My question is why doesnt run a series, where Subaru does. that plane and simple. And its a good question was in my mind since Subaru run and won a race there. Only one? so who cares , win is a win.
And the unreilbale- small engine, cant take a heat etc , is not an answere for that. Basically because its not true, Evos are reilable race cars , if they build and managed properly. They are not as capable as the GT3 etc on road course or circuit for sure ,but that has nothing to do with reilability.

I was really interested, since there is some good cars - drivers around here so i was wondering a same, and now i know.
thanks for those two guys.

Rob

PS : you have a nice car there, but what restriction you have to have in the engine as a guy said?

 

No, you got the answer you wanted after they replied, big difference. You dutifully ignored the actual expert on the subject (as far as this thread is concerned) because you didn't like what he was saying. MBellRacing did a great job of explaining, you just didn't listen/accept it.

Neither Boomn29 nor SamsonEvoX race in the Continental series, yet you've decided to take their opinions as fact over MBellRacing, a person who does indeed race in the Continental series, just amazing. Critically, they've both said essentially what MBellRacing has said, albeit in less detail and with less personal experience. Boomn29's explanation can be summed up as the Evo wouldn't be competitive, a point MBellRacing has made over the past 5 pages, and SamsonevoX's explanation was essentially that the Evo would have to be heavily modified which goes against the concept of the series itself.

Do you also get your medical advice by asking around until you get the answer you want all while dutifully ignoring what any doctor tells you?

This thread represents everything that is right and wrong about internet forums. They're a great opportunity to get some expert feedback, but they're also a place where that feedback gets drowned out by a whole lot of noise.

Note: None of this is meant to offend Boomn29 or SamsonEvoX. Both provided great information and contributed quite a bit to the discussion. I'm just getting tired of this crap having in thread after thread on all forums. Somebody who actually knows what they're talking about, and can back it up, makes posts that are quickly dismissed because they don't align with whatever presumptions or allegiances another person happens to have.

 

Amen!

 

 

This thread brought to you by Jeremy Clarkson:

 

as long as its works and i get the answer .

I hope this will clear it out for you:

I dont care rules etc , if the Subaru is already there. And basically he did gave out a very detailed inside infos about the series. Which is really great and useful. But wont answered the question.

Those and the commenst about bad reputation of the Evo about reilablity etc (i sum it up post 28) does have a different tone , as SamsonevoX and boom29 asnwered.
Or how Subaru using ALS and they denying it, FYI, ALS is basically unusable for road race anyway, creates more head ache then does good... Road racers ideally dont use ALS since they do not have that big restriction.And actually does creates for road racers and circuit races a reilability issues.
I do care why EVO guys WHO ARE RACING an evo on track or cicuit racing , why not considering the series. Because some really talented drivers are here, i believe. I am not interested really why a great Camaro race driver thinks the Evo shouldnt be there in the first place. That is acompletely different subject. Even though can be or it is a very legit point. I however do apriciate his insights, even though you think i dont
As your explanation about why evo wouldnt be competiteve, because the cooling problem for the EVo in traffic, is actually quite entertaining. About pointing out internet noises... LOL

Cheers Rob.

 

So basically, you want people who own Evos, but don't have any experience with the series in question, to explain why Evos are not in the series? Uh huh. So you would only trust a doctor's diagnosis if he also had the disease in question? MBellRacing is in the series this thread is about. Unlike you, he needs to know the rules. He also has stated, numerous times now, that he owned an Evo, and uses Evos regularly to instruct. You'd be hard struck to find a better source of information than him.

I'm glad my explanation amuses you. It's pretty clear from this thread that the language barrier is not the only problem here; you've decided to only hear what you want to hear. You seem to want everyone to listen to you and respect your posts yet you've made several snide remarks to other members where you've drawn into question their experience, their credibility and their character.

For specific examples, you suggested that Smike didn't know what he was talking about when he said the Mustang handles better (lol, he's only been racing for years).

You made these statements to MBellRacing

Post #16 Post #20 Post #22 You even said this

Post #28 yet here you are, acting like you know everything about everything that is motorsports. What exactly is your road racing experience, Rob? What exactly makes you the expert on the matter?

We all know you rally, if this thread was about rally, we'd take your advice, but it's not. You already admitted you know nothing about the series. By contrast, MBellRacing races in the series, and even went so far as to look up the rules of other series you alluded to to get the facts straight.

 

One funny thing about this whole discussion is that the SCCA is in the midst of trying to revamp their Touring car classes. There is talk about trying to let Grand-am GS cars into T1 along with NASA ST2 cars. SO, this would pit the exact cars we are talking about in a race series. Yes this is not PRO racing and shorter races but it show's that the times are still about the same. With ST2 evo's only producing about 370hp agianst the mighty 400+ hp V8's.

EVO's still have a hard time on those big tracks tho!

Just ask Martin from AMS how well people like EVO's road racing. (stupid **** going on there!)