I am very upset that Hellacious' thread regarding calvin (Calvinwch) was deleted, particularly after several people (myself included) took the time to post our feelings on the manner. While it didn't belong in OT, and wasn't handled ideally by Hellacious, it was still a valuable thread because it illustrates several things.

First, it seems that this forum (via its Moderators) is heavily biased towards the Vendors. This is a great injustice to the thousands of Lancer and Lancer Evolution owners that come here. Vendors, resellers, and entreprenuers will come and go - the good ones will flourish, the bad ones will not. This is how capitalism is intended to work. Bad vendors should not be defended simply because they are a vendor. Every person or company who sells products through this forum should be expected to maintain a reasonable level of service. Those that cannot will be negatively reviewed by their customers, and those voices must be heard. The backlash of silencing an unhappy customer can be worse than a negative review - this forum should be mindful of who its real "customers" are.

Second, while the Hellacious v. Calvin situation was not a black and white matter, the fact that a Vendor who sold a defective part is being defended by Moderators is a bad sign. In Hellacious' thread, no fewer than 3 Moderators posted in defense of the Vendor, and if memory serves 2 of them took personal liberties with the poster, not to mention numerous other people doing the same. Only 2 individuals, myself and Crzylizard, defended the customer's right to get a quality product. Several people defended calvin's products solely on the basis that there are very few Lancer vendors around. That is not a reason to accept an inferior product.

Third, to go along with this thread , I'm quite unhappy that the entire thread was deleted (presumably moved to a trash bin where only Moderators can view it). Locking it would have been more appropriate, especially given some of the degrading attacks on the original poster. While much of what I post in OT is nothing more than goofing off, when I take the time to make a serious post (such as this one) I don't like seeing my effort erased on the whim of a Moderator, who may or may not have an unbiased view towards the thread.

Thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts.
WSB

 

Billy while I do agree w/ you in regards to a person reviewing a product whether it be neg or pos. I do not see how that thread was a review. It had a transcript of a personal conversation as well as whether a check bounced or payment was stopped. None of that is relevant. I am not defending anyone, just stating my opinion. I think the poster should give another review of the product to recant his original review, no matter how negative. btw I was not aware that the thread was deleted, I am curious to know why

 

The thread isn't gone permanently. We just weren't sure what to do with it because of its excessively negative comments. It may be put back in OT (where it was originally) or vendor review, but for the time being it's gone.

I think the primary issue with negative vendor comments in general is that at times, and I'm certainly not saying all the time, the buyer will post a negative without the vendor even knowing they caused an inconvenience or had a problem. This gives them very little chance to remedy the situation. In ebay terms it's like leaving negative feedback without giving the seller a chance to fix the problem.

 

I remember that thread, I didn't know that it was shut down though. I remember posting in defense of Hellacious, that was a bad business decision on calvin's side to do hellacious the way he did

 

Billy i was their w/ you on that one my last post on that thread which was today pretty much explained the actions of the mods and it was deleted. so every thing i wrote this morning was a waste of my time, and had very valuable point's in it. Im stated we should praise calvin cause he's a pioneer and that we shouldn't be picky due to the fact their are so few companies out their that make parts, well i think we should be picky to make the vendors want to serve us better with quality products and good service. we shouldn't have to take shotty part's cause their the only one's availible.

i also did state that hell was wrong because he reveiwed the product before he thoughly reveiwed it cause he did say it was good. but i give that to the fact he was excited cause it came and what not.

I'am w/ you on this one aswell as the last one Billy, IMa was outta line for a mod and didn't conduct him in a proper mod sence.......


this was better the first time i wrote it man that sucked.....

 

.....

 

I still stand by what I posted in that thread as asking a member to use the guidelines of the forum for dealing with a problem cannot be considered a defense of the vendor. Mark has set some guidelines on this issue. You can see them here:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...&threadid=8609
There is a way of handling a problem so that results are achieved promptly and with, hopefully, positive results.

I do agree, the thread that has been moved has some good information in it, however, because of the seriousness of the matters involved I personally would like to see Mark clean it and repost it.

 

Using the forum (namely Mark) as a mediator opens up a whole can of worms. While I respect Mark's ability to mediate between the two parties, it doesn't resolve any of the underlying issues.

I should note that Hellacious' situation is probably not one that is good to examine, because of all the extraneous factors (namely the supposedly bounced check). So, this situation is pretty ugly all-around, which is why I understand your position Dan.

At the core, the customer received a defective product and the vendor refuses to work with the customer to resolve the matter. So, let's take a different view - a strictly hypothetical situation. Let's say that I bought a carbon fiber hood for my Lancer Evo from an EvoM vendor, and when I received it I discovered that it wasn't actually carbon fiber - it was fiberglass with a pretty pattern on top. The vendor refuses to take it back since it's not defective, unless I pay a stocking fee and S&H to return it. Now, I contact Mark, Mark contacts the vendor, and the financial issues are eventually resolved after many heated discussions, accusations, etc - Say the vendor waves the restock fee and we split S&H to return the hood.

Now, nobody aside from 3 people realizes that the vendor sold a product that was different from what he purported it to be. While I may be satisfied with the resolution, the only thing I can do within the confines of the rules is post a product/vendor review saying that the CF hood isn't really CD, it's fiberglass. That means nobody else on this forum will be made aware that the vendor is misleading his customers; nobody will be made aware that the vendor is unwilling to work to satisfy the customers without outside interference; and nobody will be made aware that it still cost me a pretty penny (not to mention a lot of hassle) and I have no hood to show for it.

How many times will the same thing happen to other people, specfically other members of this forum, simply because the forum's rules protected the vendor and not the customer? That is all I'm getting at here.

Regards,
WSB

 

I completely understand your point and myself as a member of this forum and potential client of some vendors would as well want to know the most I can about vendors before doing business with them, particularly if the business is being done over the internet. This is why we have a "Vendor Review" forum. This is where in a civil manner, a review of a vendor can be placed, positive or negative, so that it is easily read by all interested members. With this information posted, all members can make a decision as whether or not they trust doing business with a vedor.

This is how I understand the provisions Mark has given in this forum work. I am a new mod, so I still may not understand this correctly. I'll look into it further.

 

Ok, I read through the thread and I think Hellacious went about this completely wrong. There appears to be 2 issues:

1. The wing does not appear to fit.
2. The payment (check) for the mold bounced.

IMO both parties are at fault, but it's always the job of a vendor to try and resolve the matter because things like this always look bad... it's the equivalent of us ignoring this post and saying "screw you" to all our members... no way we'd do that! At the same time Hellacious never once contacted me about this situation (to my knowledge) and if he had done so, he might have had a better outcome and could still have posted his review.

With that said, I think Hellacious should either post a part review or vendor review about this situation. Both parties know about the situation and at this point it has not been resolved, so that warrants a review.

This review DOES need to be a review though, which means it should be thoughtful and it should explain the situation from the customers point of view.

Hope this clears some issues up for you guys. If you still feel that you can't post about something, just email me and we can talk about it because I don't want anyone to feel that way. I assure you that I don't want to run this site like a dictatorship and I'm not out to please the vendors because they pay a fee. Also, we're still a fairly new site and some moderators have to get a feel for how to handle situations. We do have a moderator forum and I'll be discussing this matter with everyone just so we can all give opinions and determine better ways to handle these things. Situations like this one allow us to learn where and how to apply the rules (and even what to change) in the best interests of the members and site. I guess we can mess up too

Mark

 

Wow... well put Mark. Ill be looking forward to seeing that moderator's discussion soon. Thx bud

I would also like to take the time to apologize to BlkLancer, WestSideBilly and Hellacious for my behavior. I just happened to overreact to the situation and tried to mediate a lil too harshly. For that I am sorry, I hope i can gain your respect again as a Moderator. Thanks in advance.

 

Mark -

You are 100% correct on that specific case. Both parties are at fault to some degree, with the customer holding a wing he can't use, and a vendor holding a check he can't cash; and it should have been handled differently. My perception of the thread being trashcanned was that the vendor was being protected, which may or may not be (at least partially) true.

I think the rest of your post relieves some of my concern about the underlying problem I see, and I appreciate your efforts to keep things going smooth.

Thanks,
WSB

 

I frankly don't think its a big deal to post both positive and negative feedback regarding vendors. I would think the vast majority of the members like to have quality products at a fair price. There is nothing more aggravating than being excited about modding your car the way you want it and getting lousy over priced crap that no one would dare put on their car. I don't exactly have money to throw around on junk. I think negative feedback on vendors can help shield innocent buyers from falling into the trap of getting hosed. Wouldn't you want to hear all potential problems with a part you were considering buying so you can make a informed decision? I think potential vendors should do some R&D before selling a product or at least have some racing experience like RRM.

 

I guess I'm a little late to response to this. I'm fully agree with waht Mark and Dan said.

I don't want to start any arguement of whether we handled it correctly or not. However, certain things can be improved in our (mod) part to make that a little smoother.

Regarless, like I have said in the original thread, I strongly suggested Hellacious to use the Vendor Review Forum to voice his opinion/let himself be heard over this matter. I personally find that's the appropriate channel to use.

Hope everyone is on that same page...

 

Yeah, I agree, I went about this 'review' the wrong way. I should have been more civil and mature about it, but I was just so upset about it. I plan to make a new, better review in the vendor review forum as soon as this thing is settled. Once again, I'm sorry for causing so much trouble.