I was curious to hear everyone's opinions on what Toronto Lancer Club is to them?

To me it seems like a business over a club. And that is simply put.

I am hoping to hear other's inputs as well

 

it is interesting that you consider it a business above all else.

care to provide some reasoning?

this is very different to what i perceive TLC to be, though I must say the club has changed a lot over the last two years

 

i agree with laksman. majority of topics here is group buys where profit is being made.

i pm'd many times for officer positions because i know how much cash flow this club is doing (cash as in non documented transactions) but i guess i never got picked for some reason.

im totally in for group buys.. if the prices are honest. i got quoted 500 USD for a product when a fellow group member got that product for around 300
hmmmm

 

I will address this to every body broadly so people dont think I am targeting.

If you think this is a business, thats fine. but I am the one in charge and I am telling your its not. I have been on the border line of quiting a few times because I run into the problem that people think there is something sinister about everything I am doing. All I have been doing really is just help get the ball rolling for starting a club.

In the beginning, it was just a bunch of guys but in order for the club to grow, that takes capital. Now matter how you want to calculate it. Either Labor + Money or Time + Effort + Money.

In the process I have personally suffered, All the special projects I wanted to do for my car have been more or less suspended, and if you have seen my car lately, I have been skimping out on the up keep.

1) a year ago after spending a fortune on the EVO X rear bodykit from bodykits.com a 17 year old kit rear ended the car. The bumper was on the car for 1 week.
2) 6 months driving around with a damage front bodykit lip (girlfriend ramped a piece of ice on the 401 highway.
3) 1 year of driving around with rusting EVOSOUL lettering
4) 1 Year of driving around with a complete Axleback dual exhaust that needs adjustments to make the fitments perfect. Also not enough capital to pursue any real development of this exhaust with the manufacturer if i really wanted to.
5) Not enough capital to purchase other mods
etc.... etc....
Dont let me go on about all the other bad luck stories

I have mentioned this before but its not really brought up to often. I am trapped between two worlds. One is helping form and develop the car club the best way possible. The other is doing my own thing, getting back to my personal projects and developments, getting involved with stuff that will make me happy. Because I am doing both, its hard for me to excel in either effort.

laksman91, addressing your original comment.... I can take criticism and feedback from anyone thats fine and I welcome it. If someone disagrees with my handling of any situation I want to hear it straight up.

If this all seems like its a business, I would like to say that its not. Although it may be taking a form / structure as one, thats basically is the only way an organization profit or non profit can survive.

Looking from the outside - in. It may look like one, but all relationships are not of a, for profit nature at this point. But if you look closer, most of the efforts have been to connect buyers(members) with Sellers. Of the group buys established by myself, say the Winter tire group buy. I did not do it for profit, but to honestly help connect lancer owners with a good pick of tires. It took very little effort to organize and I made arrangments to have any profits that do come about, to be reinvested into the next group buy. This led to cheap / prices for the next group buy for the summer / all season tires. And so on.

The Evolutionm.net direction, was something I proposed from the beginning and I was able to speak with the owners of evolutionm.net to explore this option. So far I am happy to say things are going well.

The next stage of the car club will eventually be a for profit model, but that will only happen when enough people and resources are in the right places. For right now, its just a rag tag bunch of punks meeting every 2 weeks.

In the mean time, the club supports itself by running on a non profit focus, and as the club stays profit neutral, resources can be reallocated to expanding.

Responding to Smokes comment about cash in non document transactions. most transactions do not go thru the car club or even me. They are direct buyer to seller transactions. The HID vendor we deal with. I have selected them as a HID vendor because I have had personal experience with them and I know the owner will stand by his product to the end of time. I push him to lower his prices or add value for our club behalf of the club and both sides of the equation are happy. In the future, we revisit the arrangement and tweak it to work as the clubs model changes.

One last example is... the Dyno Day on January 31st, We had a demostration of products all of which were donated kindly by Vendors and the Dyno itself sponsored by Mobil 1. Why? well because we love wacky experiments and engines that roar. lol But as you can see, these things have yielded great results. Not only did we see the EVO X perform... but we got to see the Lancer Not perform. Since we discovered a difference in the Canadian ECU vs. the USA ECU. something that wouldnt have been discovered without that even. Renting a Dyno for a day costs 800 dollars a pop.


Bringing this argument full circle... back to me.... If you want to know if I am profiting... lol the answer is no.... lol not at all. I do this because I am the open source kinda guy, I like to debate and talk, experiment and try new things. Sprint Booster is an example. I make no money from it, but i talk about it because I give my honest take on it.

My hopes for the future.....

I would like to know that, should i move on... that the car club have a structure and be run by a body of members. Something that embodies a balanced fair system of governance. In the mean time... its still being built brick by brick and i need the help of everyone to get there.

 

I am quoting this so I can address it specifically,
It has to be evantually structured this way. no club will survive without a business structure. its either that or I pass a hat / cup around every meet looking for cash donations lol. Like everything else in this world, Income - expenses better = 0 or better. If not....then its game over.



If that still doesnt move you into thinking this is not a business then I would like you to do what I do for a week then let me know if you think this is a real business hhehe





About the topics and profit, I humbly disagree. If you do a evolutionm.net search, most of the threads I have started have nothing to do with group buys. The only reason why you are seeing that is because we now have our own Forum section which was introduced I think less than 2 months ago. I think I can say we for all the Toronto Lancer guys who have been here from the beginning. its been an interesting 2 years but we are still here and I would like to say with confidence our ranks are increasing. So in regards to the talk of profit. Profit is a word that everyone equates to business.... i perfer to use revenue neutral funds. What is meant... if there is a transaction and the club has some liable exposure than a levy is put in the middle of the transaction to cover that. But right now... we are not even at that point yet. I have not implemented this as yet, still recruiting.

Getting to the second part of your comment. I think I recall your inquiries, but you have to understand, I have gotten about 50 of them. some people remember that my inbox was full from time to time. I went back to read what you wrote when you applied, you were inquiring about the suspension stuff, and my response was at the time

"I will try to get back to you by the weekend if thats ok. I got a mountain of crap to do right now but thanks for the interest"

Well friend, that mountain of crap hasn't changed. I am back logged. The reason why i havent gotten back to you is there are more pressing matters having to do with evolutionm and structure. You may see people being promoted here and there but its A) mostly of the time due to the fact that its something in the works for a very very long time, especially if the person has been around since the beginning. Few people have stepped up and put skin in the game, aka their own money and time. Not alot of people will do this for little or no compensation. And its hard for me to hand out posts and have every confidence that they will have their heart in it for the club and pursue business on behalf of the club. If your still interested in handling the suspension portfolio I could sure use a hand. but thats still a few weeks away.

And now the last part.

"if the prices are honest" there is no fix, there is no fat cat somewhere getting excessive amounts of profit. And this is something I try to stress to everyone I run into especially if they are not of or from the business world. (Smoke this is not just started at you, just trying to share a point to everyone, So smoke you can skip the next paragraph)

Consumers for the most part, have no idea how hard it is to be a small business, lol especially in times like these where the whole economy is upside down. I envy companies like RRM and WORKs, etc... etc... its friggin hardwork to keep yourself a float. The responsibility of taking care of yourself, and those who follow you are a big responsibility. On the economics side of things. if a small company can find something they are good at, and provide a service or good to consumers when no one else is.... does cost matter? An example would be the RRM header. I have commented about this alot. Companies like RRM put products out first, they go in to uncharted waters and for better or worse... they put it out there for everyone to evaluate. If there is a problem, they more or less address it or try to tighten their game. The header is such a thing, also their exhaust. Its it perfect? No? Does it last for ever? No? But did it deliver? and the answer every time is yes. (well most of the time.) What I mean by that... did it perform. And its not very often that I hear people complain about a product not performing. I am no small business, and I can not even think about comparing our club to RRM... they have been around for a while and keep on going. I just think that there is always a disconnect between the business side of things and the consumer side. Someone will say oh thats too much... and there will be always someone out there who says oh I can do that cheaper. But I say this to everyone... when you buy something for cheap.. and you get screwed who is to blame, the buyer or seller? I am the type that will always differ to experience and history. Does that mean sometimes I pay more, sure... but I know that if I have a problem, it for the most part will be taken care of.

sorry for the rant everyone

Smoke, what product are you referring to? The club doesnt sell anything that ranges in the 500 dollar range. Only thing that comes to mind might be the time the club bought INJEN intakes from JRP. they had a sale going on for 300 dollars, alot of guys bought it. Then the prices when up because the currency when to hell in a hand basket. and now the same intake costs 450+. So ya they can stand there and say "I paid 300 dollars, you might be getting ripped off" but if you go to buy it today, its about 450.

If its something else. PM me.. I want to know


Cheers

 

You newby's will see, this would be your first season coming out. And the season is just getting started.

 

I've never bought anything so its definitely not a business to me. I just go and chill at the meets and do the little cruise arounds.

 

the way i see it:

there is absolutely nothing wrong about a car club doing some business with its members, if the members are getting quality products at a reasonable price. If it is win-win for everyone, there is no reason to complain. This is especially the case for your lancers, because many shops still do not carry aftermarket parts for your cars, these group buys through clubs allows members to get hold of parts relatively easier.

but this does not mean car clubs cannot survive without the business aspect side of of things. many large car clubs in toronto do not run any group buys / purchase anything from the club, yet they still exist. but it is important to point out that these car clubs, for most part, already have lots of well established shops / sources for members to purchase parts and so the club itself does not need to sell parts to its members.

 

It's a social car club - like any other social car club around - also its an information centre about your ride - meet people who will help you or advise you what to do or how to do with your ride. The buying stuff is just a part of any clubs. If profit is to be made also part of any clubs - also you are buying at much lower price when you are in a club -hook ups.

 

The reason why i applied for a position is simply because of this. the business model. i come from the banking industry so all this cash deals with... "who do i owe this to? or who owes me money" makes me nervous.

thats why i tried to apply and help structure sales so that disputes will not occur. do you remember the rear lip? i asked you how much it was you said 300 + 200 shipping. so thats 500 usd.

honestly, if you make a profit i dont care because this is not what a club is truly about...if you state it up front. but i dont like how we all get different markups. there will always be someone selling something in a group but it doesn't feel like you are selling to us because you can help us out with prices or connections.. it feels that you are selling so you can retire next year. honestly... 200 bucks USD for shipping? and i asked you about customs.. so what if i get charged 100 bucks for that... im paying over 600 bucks for this product that i know someone got way less for.

 

yikes.. getting hot in here.. so whens the next meet...??anyone,.

 

Guidelines need to be set for "Group Buys". Ive seen a few group buys / personal sales turn ugly and cause alot of problems for members and senior staff. Group buys are great for getting a good product cheaper but they have the potential to ruin car clubs / relationships.

Maybe the first post needs to clearly show the price of the product / shipping / taxes. Everything is posted in the forum, no pming because it may look suspicious to other members.

My 2 cents form what ive seen in other forums.

 

everyone does know that all car clubs do group buys to get **** for cheaper , dont see how thats a buisness tho , way i see it if your getting what you want for cheaper by getting it through a group then why complain , your still getting your **** cheaper

 

may 28 this thursday at kennedy commons chapters

 

I will respond to this since you raised very specific points.

But first, let me say I also come from the banking industry / Finance. Actually I am formerly a high volume NYSE / NASDAQ trader. I hate the numbers side of it, but enjoy it with a passion..... moving on......


Because I think I kinda understand where you going with this but because your perspective doesnt not include the total picture. I think I should clear the air so you fully understand what the situation is on the ground first.

About a year or so ago, I attempted to execute a group buy. the total price in was about 800 dollars for a front and back. I bought my kit along with everyone else, no special treatment. For everyone who had the money up front and paid me, great. there were some people who said sure. no problem , I am good for it. To make a long story short, people bailed either because they had to for what ever reason, or because they became uninterested. What ended up happening, is that I more or less had to cover the difference and holding more bodykit lips then I would like.

Since you are in the banking industry then you are well aware of what the USA dollar was like. but since everyone else is reading this and may not remember, have a look here

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=C...urce=undefined

Here is the problem. This is an economic situation. I have bodykit lips, more then i ever wanted, I attempted to offer them at the going price price. This was late summer going into the Fall.

So 900 dollars US which at the time was 900 canadian. As time went on, I got stuck. holding the Excess. Remember true value of the front and rear lip is 900 dollars USA since its sourced in that currency.

Trying to sell something in US Dollars while the Canadian was free falling = NOT GOOD. I held on to alot of the lips for a long time, right up to early this year. But if you go thru my posts you will see that i continuously had to keep lowering my price. Why because I am trying to get rid of what I have.

Bringing this full circle, If I were a business or running this in a business matter I wouldnt be worried about this, I would hold the price at what ever the market price is and wait for a Buyer. The problem is, alot of what i want to do with MY MONEY, is tied up in BODYKIT LIPS that I cant use for myself. If it looks like I am selling things at what ever price its because I got caught holding the bag.

For the Record and to be completely honestly with you directly. I technically took a loss. Or at the very least, I didnt make any money.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To address your other point. Quoting what you said

"thats why i tried to apply and help structure sales so that disputes will not occur. do you remember the rear lip? i asked you how much it was you said 300 + 200 shipping. so thats 500 usd. "


I am going to extremely blunt with you, so that i can end this point with you by being honest. If you can buy these lips either business wise, or personally as a consumer for less then 500 dollars for one piece. Please , for the love of god and the whole club please find me the solution.

You have to understand that these lips are coming from Singapore, I am not being rude / I dont want you to take this the wrong way. But , its an arm and a leg to get that lip here. If you call my contact, or anyone who sells bodykits in asia and ships them to Canada. You will find the pricing to be higher.

The problem is the Volumetric size of the box makes the shipping super pricey. Thats it. Other then that everything is pretty reasonable. Second 200 dollars shipping per piece I think assumes you are shipping a front and a rear, and even that, its probably higher.

Shipping is one thing, Second, Customs is a completely different beast, for bodykits or smaller stuff. But for anything I have done, I have attempted to keep the custom side of things fair and as transparent as possible. Again if i was running a for profit business, I would not offer the Rebate back to people for money not used. Again on the surface of it, if I take a premium, it might look like I am doing it for profit. But if I am the guy running around doing everything, I dont want to be put in the situation where i have to put my own money up when everyone else is short.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Your last point... and again I am not trying to stick it to you, but you raise apoint I have no choice but to answer very directly.

"honestly, if you make a profit i dont care because this is not what a club is truly about...if you state it up front. but i dont like how we all get different markups. there will always be someone selling something in a group but it doesn't feel like you are selling to us because you can help us out with prices or connections.. it feels that you are selling so you can retire next year. honestly... 200 bucks USD for shipping? and i asked you about customs.. so what if i get charged 100 bucks for that... im paying over 600 bucks for this product that i know someone got way less for."


Never went into this to make a profit. not for myself, nore as part of the TLC business model (which hasnt happened yet).

If i did, then they hell with trying to organize people. I would just take my money, Buy 20 Lips ship it on one box sea frieght wait for it to arrive and then sell it in a store or on EBAY. Anyone who would go thru this much effort and think that this current way is a smart way to make money is not very business savy. Rule in the business world. You either go big or you go home. We are not big yet and must wait for the right time.

If you think I unfairly handled selling lips I got saddled with, rest assured. If I had to do it over again, I probably wont. If you look at my recent post. when talking about bodykits, you might notice that I said I am helping organize this for the last time. And you can bet your *** I am going to make sure everyone has their ducks in a row.

I have no more lips, I sold the last one to T-Pain for about 400 dollars give or take. I cant even remember to be honest, why because I need my money back. What did I do with it, I took the girlfriend who crashed the car twice..... BUT I LOVE, on a vacation break. I am not sure if that is the person you are citing or someone else, there were a few kits around over the last few months and I sold them. No profit, just recovering my capital that has been more or less trapped for a year.

A few days ago, I posted this https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/7092740-post1.html

It was refering to the fact that A) my car needs major repairs / overhaul. In theory there is one bodykit left and thats the one currently on the my car. Slightly damaged. I and a few other people are banding together to import so far only about 4 or 5 pieces (2 hoods and my new front and rear lip kit) I am paying normal regular prices like everyone else. I am not above anyone and to be honest, I am only here to help.

I am not sure if I have succeeded in showing you my point of view and my argument that the nature of the club at this point is not for profit. I am not saying the club is communist but right now, its 100% all about community. I will admit, There is a conflict of interest present. I am EVOSOUL that likes to do independent stuff and I am also EVOSOUL that is helping start something. And I am wearing two hats and sometimes things look, funny. Sure... but you have to understand the whole story leads to more.

I am not taking your comments to heart in a negative way, and i dont want to come off as if I am angry or slighted, not at all. If you are still interested in helping, I am open for it, I hope that I was successful in changing your view of the club. I cant do much more then what I already said. I would hope you dont think that I am assigning special treatment to anyone. But I have been attempting to work closely with the few people I see who are going the extra distance, and I reward them accordingly. Two Examples of this are Both AJ aka Will, and Jeff (red EVO dude). Both are guys who have shown to me that they are working their *** off, and have skin in the game, either putting money in when they don't have to.

I have just met alot of new members, and I am greatful to meet each one of you guys. But I am one guy, thats suppost to be doing this in my spare time so, I will whole heartedly admit that i have dropped the ball sometimes. Have I missed emails, have i forgotten to press send, have i forgotten to return a phone call, have i been delayed in doing my personal projects, Do I incur the wrath of my girlfriend for what looks to her like I am ignoring her. Sure...... haha I am sure I have been executed by my girlfriend.

My goal is to make the car club stand on its own two feet, so that it doesnt need one man. So that it is independent and self sustaining. If I walked away tomorrow, I cant say with confidence that the club would survive. I have seen diffrerent clubs raise and fall and rise again. and i have talked to their leaders and constantly try to refine the model. Its never going to be perfect. It might be arbitrary. the goal is to grow and improve.


" it feels that you are selling so you can retire next year. honestly... ?"

That does sound nice... lol joking. Actually I have more ambitious plans ahead. I will unveil them at a later point, but it may take me away from the car club.