So we've been getting a lot of calls this past week from people who have been road tuned recently. Apparently, they don't feel that their cars are performing as they should. From what I've been told, their road tuning process took around 2 hours and involved a bunch of datalogging and additional in-car instrumentation. As well as a few highway on-ramps and a meeting in some parking lot.

So today, in came a beautiful grey EVO IX. Not only was it road tuned, it was also modded with parts recommended by the road tuner! These parts were recommended and professionally installed prior to the road tune. We won’t disclose the brand name of some of these parts. Instead, we'll just refer to them as "Brand X".

So here is what was on the car:

-Brand X downpipe (which was removed due to fitment issues and replaced by another aftermarket 3" dp)
-Brand X cat-back
-Brand X Upper IC pipe
-HKS intake
-Free flow cat
-Forge UNOS MBC
-Brand Y Ecutek based custom-tuned Reflash

The customer came in complaining of unsatisfactory power. He was also disappointed with all the noise (hissing/whooshing/wheezing) emanating from under the hood. His wife even commented that she thought something was wrong with the car

With the exception of the DP swap (both were 3" DPs), the car was EXACTLY as the tuner left it. Right down to the MBC setting. Dyno logs show peak boost of 21psi, tapering down to ~18psi by 7000rpm. AFR was rich in the midrange, becoming slightly leaner around 7000rpm. During the four baseline runs (with 1 min cool-down between pulls), power output ranged from 263-267whp. Torque ranged from 225-238lb-ft. Interestingly enough, these results were perfectly in-line with the dyno results measured a week or so ago at another shop (that uses an AWD Mustang Dyno). Right down to the shape of the power curve, dips and bumps in all!

Out with the new and in the old
So the next 2 hours were spent removing some unnecessary parts. First removed was the upper intercooler pipe with its integrated DSM blow off valve. Next removed was the HKS intake. Next, we removed the MBC (which, quite honestly, is a nicely built piece!) Next, we plumbed back in the factory boost hoses, airbox and intake hose. The airbox proved to be a bit difficult to install due to some interference issues with the aluminum batter mount. Then we installed the factory upper intercooler pipe and factory BOV. What we were left with was a nearly stock-looking engine bay. The only ill fitting aftermarket device that you could see under the hood was the batter miniaturization kit. To be fair, however, it does save weight of the heaviest corner of the car

Next, I completely erased the factory ECU and loaded up a very conservative base map. This map changes just about every performance-related parameter in the ECU (timing, fuel, MIVEC, compensations, open/closed loop switchovers, etc,.) This is the map I use when I first begin tuning a car from scratch as it has low boost and errs on the side of conservatism in just about every respect.

The result...

Brand Y Road Tune vs. Getting started Dyno Tune (WHP and BOOST)
Ok. Not bad for starters. Compared to the Brand Y Road Tune, the Getting-started Tune makes 6-12whp less power above 7000rpm. Everywhere else, however, it makes more power. A lot more power. We're talking 30-40whp more power. And with less boost above 4000rpm too.

And the tuning begins....
I spent the next hour tuning the car. More boost. Tweaked fuel tables. Massaged Timing tables. I made no changes to our custom MIVEC table. If it aint broke, why fix it?

The results were in line with the other EVO 9s we've tuned. Right around 285whp with similar amounts of torque. Another benchmark we use for a tuned EVO 9 (with exhaust) is for it to make 210whp (stock 05 EVO 8 power) at 4000rpm.. Which it did. Here are the results of 4 runs of the Brand Y tune vs. 4 runs of our Custom Dyno Tune:


Wheel HP
It is interesting to see that the spread/variance between the Brand Y runs are greater than they are in our custom dyno tune which is making, at times, 50 more WHP. Also nice to see that these gains were right in the midrange where they can be most useable.


Wheel Torque
A picture is worth a thousand words so I'll just shut up.


Air/Fuel Ratio
As it should, the custom dyno tune shows a sensible AFR curve, getting richer towards the higher RPM band. As it should to keep cylinder-temps in check. Absent is the strange 7000RPM enleanment that was evident with the Brand Y tune.


Boost Pressure
With in-cylinder temps and pressures under control, we could run a fair amount of boost on 91oct. 23peak, steady at 22 and tapering to 19 by redline. One of the nice things about the MIVEC equipped EVO 9 is the improved knock resistance afforded by its ability to put intake cam timing wherever it wants for maximum performance. Awesome car.

Although a $450 lighter in the pocket (from 1.5 hours of uninstalling and 1.5hour of dyno tuning) the customer left happy and satisfied with the results. Perhaps he can give his driving impression after he has some more time to test the car.

Deep Thoughts/Conclusions

-Sometimes aftermarket parts aren't worth the expense. Not only do they often fit poorly, rattle and make excessive noise, they are useless unless the system is tuned properly. And even then, don't expect to see as big of gains as vendors would claim based upon their in-house, poorly-controlled, hardly-subjective dyno testing methods.

-Road tuning, while useful in the hands of someone who knows what he/she is doing, often leaves a lot to be desired. We have seen this time and time again. Getting road tuned is very much like opening up an unlabeled paper bag that some prankster left on your doorstep. It could be filled with crap or gold. Who knows? But tell me which is more likely? Especially when there is no way to quantifiable test things (like horspower?), in a stable and controlled environment, before the process is considered complete.

-A quiet, smooth-running fast car is a whole lot more enjoyable to drive than a slow, hissy and lumpy running car. And no amount of internet marketing ploys, spreading of bad info, disingenuous partnerships, and big talk is going to change that.

-Measure twice. Cut Once.

Flame Suite On...

-shiv

 

Good Job, Shiv.

 

I think that brand Y doesn't know how to tune 91 gas. there were numerous complain about that.

I like the bit loud hissing car. Driving the fast quiet car was little dangerous. people has to know you are going fast. If you are quiet, they don't pay attention and they don't realize how fast your car is accelerating and they will come out in front of you. Think about if you have a quiet motorcylcle, you will not survive long.

Although, having quiet car is very stealthy and Cops won't bother you or treat you like criminal.

 

That was a very informative post, Shiv. Well spoken, well stated and free of bashing.

There is a certain point where functionality of the stock items become fitment problems (like a 4" inlet on a GT35) OR you require upgrades. For stock turboed cars, I can see where you are coming from 1000%. I just think that as you go along, even though you may not see immediate goals, upgrading parts when the opportunity presents, as in adding a larger intercooler because of a group buy, or buying a BOV for a good price. Neither will do much for a stock turboed car, but if your end result is much greater power, wouldnt it be in your best interests to look ahead? Like injectors....people always say buy this and buy that. Honestly, if you plan on making 500whp one day, but are only shooting for 340 today, why not just buy the 1000cc injectors now and save buying stuff twice?


Im nor argueing, Shiv, please dont think I have any intent like that. Im just saying, forethought with some of these parts is the idea. At least thats what Ive concluded myself. How wrong can I be?


One way or another, great post. Keep it up!

 

I went through quite a bit of cash to learn this the hard way. Even when people who bought the part tell you "it rocks!" consider that most (not all) will be reluctant to admit they went down a dead-end and their shiny new part turned out to be a step back instead of an improvement.

The Evo is a very good car, and even with a very high quality after-market part, you really have to think about your approach before you mod, or it may not get you the result you are hoping for - especially since not every Evo owner has the same opinion on what is an improvement as the person(s) who desigend the part in question.

Disclaimer: I own neither vishnu nor dynoflash parts/services, nor am I saying anything about either specific vendor, just making a general statement.

 

Oh boy, the road tune. When I was road tuned by a previous vender, I was left with a poorly running car on 91 octane. Quarter mile times fell off about 3/10ths and almost 3 MPH slower. Shiv spent almost 45 minutes troubleshooting on a Dyno Day last year and ending up loading up one of his flashes to get my Evo back to square 1. Unfortunately, I had to fix the other guys problem on Shiv's time when he could have been spending that time tuning my car. Anyway, my car is running great and I'm glad to hear that your IX is running great also.

 

My Question is, obviously your dyno tune made more HP but does it run better?
Let me throw in my .02.
I was once tuned by road tuner X and the car ran great but later I was talked into trying a dyno tune flash/piggyback from tuner Y. The car made very good power on the dyno, unfortunatly after driving around town for a few days I was starting to realize how poor the car was running after the dyno tune(backfiring, stalling, roughness in power), so I sold the piggyback from tuner Y and got another road tune from X and all was good again.
My personal opinion is how can a dyno translate to the street, hills, load etc.
I have also been tuned by other tuners on the dyno and honestly theres always something .
My intentions here are not to flame whatsoeve, I just wanted to give my thoughts on this.

 

I think you have to do both!

 

Great gains

Great post

Thanks shiv

 

The main issue with the car as I see it was that it must have developed a BOOST LEAK after it was tuned as on the pre tuning data log is shows the boost falling to 16.5 psi

On a car with stage II and no boost leaks and a FORGE MBC with no boost leaks the car would have held 19 - 19.5 psi at red line as it seems to have done after changing all the parts and re-arranging the boost control set up

To me its fairly idiotic to compare a car falling to 16 psi to one which is holding proper boost

More boost = more power

Its also regratable to see Mr. Shiv bashing the quality and fitament of Buschur parts which I personally find to be some of the best parts out there

It is most regretable that rather than fixing the boost leak on this customer's car that Shiv chose to sell him a bunch of unneeded parts and go through this big some and dance

Remeber folk - BOOST = POWER

My tune on low boost vs. MORE BOOST = more power



Again - the BR stage II kit is a wonderful set up and its regretable that evidently a hose coupler may have loosened up or some other boost leak which lowered the boost about 3 psi from how it was tuned

I feel sorry for the customer who could have been set back with just a boost leak test but sadly it seems tuners would rather atatck other tuners and play games than really fix a problem

I have seen hundreds and hundreds of BR Stage kits out there and they continue to be some of the finest produced and best working parts in the business.

The fact that Shiv could speak of the BR products in such a manner about these fine parts shows how irrational he really is.

 

So we've been getting a lot of calls this past week from people who have been road tuned recently. Apparently, they don't feel that their cars are performing as they should. From what I've been told, their road tuning process took around 2 hours and involved a bunch of datalogging and additional in-car instrumentation. As well as a few highway on-ramps and a meeting in some parking lot.

So today, in came a beautiful grey EVO IX. Not only was it road tuned, it was also modded with parts recommended by the road tuner! These parts were recommended and professionally installed prior to the road tune. We won’t disclose the brand name of some of these parts. Instead, we'll just refer to them as "Brand X".

So here is what was on the car:

-Brand X downpipe (which was removed due to fitment issues and replaced by another aftermarket 3" dp)
-Brand X cat-back
-Brand X Upper IC pipe
-HKS intake
-Free flow cat
-Forge UNOS MBC
-Brand Y Ecutek based custom-tuned Reflash

The customer came in complaining of unsatisfactory power. He was also disappointed with all the noise (hissing/whooshing/wheezing) emanating from under the hood. His wife even commented that she thought something was wrong with the car

With the exception of the DP swap (both were 3" DPs), the car was EXACTLY as the tuner left it. Right down to the MBC setting. Dyno logs show peak boost of 21psi, tapering down to ~18psi by 7000rpm. AFR was rich in the midrange, becoming slightly leaner around 7000rpm. During the four baseline runs (with 1 min cool-down between pulls), power output ranged from 263-267whp. Torque ranged from 225-238lb-ft. Interestingly enough, these results were perfectly in-line with the dyno results measured a week or so ago at another shop (that uses an AWD Mustang Dyno). Right down to the shape of the power curve, dips and bumps in all!

Out with the new and in the old
So the next 2 hours were spent removing some unnecessary parts. First removed was the upper intercooler pipe with its integrated DSM blow off valve. Next removed was the HKS intake. Next, we removed the MBC (which, quite honestly, is a nicely built piece!) Next, we plumbed back in the factory boost hoses, airbox and intake hose. The airbox proved to be a bit difficult to install due to some interference issues with the aluminum batter mount. Then we installed the factory upper intercooler pipe and factory BOV. What we were left with was a nearly stock-looking engine bay. The only ill fitting aftermarket device that you could see under the hood was the batter miniaturization kit. To be fair, however, it does save weight of the heaviest corner of the car

Next, I completed erased the factory ECU and loaded up a very conservative base map. This map changes just about every performance-related parameter in the ECU (timing, fuel, MIVEC, compensations, open/closed loop switchovers, etc,.) This is the map I use when I first begin tuning a car from scratch as it has low boost and errs on the side of conservatism in just about every respect.

The result...

Brand Y Road Tune vs. Getting started Dyno Tune (WHP and BOOST)
Ok. Not bad for starters. Compared to the Brand Y Road Tune, the Getting-started Tune makes 6-12whp less power above 7000rpm. Everywhere else, however, it makes more power. A lot more power. We're talking 30-40whp more power. And with less boost above 4000rpm too.

And the tuning begins....
I spent the next hour tuning the car. More boost. Tweaked fuel tables. Massaged Timing tables. I made no changes to our custom MIVEC table. If it aint broke, why fix it?

The results were in line with the other EVO 9s we've tuned. Right around 285whp with similar amounts of torque. Another benchmark we use for a tuned EVO 9 (with exhaust) is for it to make 210whp (stock 05 EVO 8 power) at 4000rpm.. Which it did. Here are the results of 4 runs of the Brand Y tune vs. 4 runs of our Custom Dyno Tune:


Wheel HP
It is interesting to see that the spread/variance between the Brand Y runs are greater than they are in our custom dyno tune which is making, at times, 50 more WHP. Also nice to see that these gains were right in the midrange where they can be most useable.


Wheel Torque
A picture is worth a thousand words so I'll just shut up.


Air/Fuel Ratio
As it should, the custom dyno tune shows a sensible AFR curve, getting richer towards the higher RPM band. As it should to keep cylinder-temps in check. Absent is the strange 7000RPM enleanment that was evident with the Brand Y tune.


Boost Pressure
With in-cylinder temps and pressures under control, we could run a fair amount of boost on 91oct. 23peak, steady at 22 and tapering to 19 by redline. One of the nice things about the MIVEC equipped EVO 9 is the improved knock resistance afforded by its ability to put intake cam timing wherever it wants for maximum performance. Awesome car.

Although a $450 lighter in the pocket (from 1.5 hours of uninstalling and 1.5hour of dyno tuning) the customer left happy and satisfied with the results. Perhaps he can give his driving impression after he has some more time to test the car.

Deep Thoughts/Conclusions

-Sometimes aftermarket parts aren't worth the expense. Not only do they often fit poorly, rattle and make excessive noise, they are useless unless the system is tuned properly. And even then, don't expect to see as big of gains as vendors would claim based upon their in-house, poorly-controlled, hardly-subjective dyno testing methods.

-Road tuning, while useful in the hands of someone who knows what he/she is doing, often leaves a lot to be desired. We have seen this time and time again. Getting road tuned is very much like opening up an unlabeled paper bag that some prankster left on your doorstep. It could be filled with crap or gold. Who knows? But tell me which is more likely? Especially when there is no way to quantifiable test things (like horspower?), in a stable and controlled environment, before the process is considered complete.

-A quiet, smooth-running fast car is a whole lot more enjoyable to drive than a slow, hissy and lumpy running car. And no amount of internet marketing ploys and big talk is going to change that.

-Measure twice. Cut Once.

Flame Suite On...

-shiv


The original post can be found here:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...61#post2688361

 

And there off.......

 

There were no boost leaks Al. All the couplers there tight and snug. Also Al, this isn't the first road tune of yours we've fixed. It's just the first one I decided to post up. I got more coming later this week!

-shiv

 

Shiv - no way That the boost drops to 17 with a Forge Unos MBC with a Evo IX unless there is some sort of boost leak

To your credit you were honest enough to show the boost charts

However - IMHO its fairly idiotic to run a car with 3 -4 psi less boost and say one tune is better than the other

Almost all your gains in power came from increased boost levels

As I said pitty a boost leak test with pressure was not done and the car dynoed holding 19 psi of boost as it was when I tuned it

I will post the data logs later when I have more time showing how well the boost was holding and how hard the car was pulling

very pathetic and unbelievable to see this diatribe of idiocy posted by a guy like youself - but it is amusing.

 

Is it possible that the power differences we are seeing are due to different strategies on tuning the MIVEC?