Thanks David. That makes it much easier to understand. Based on the dyno results, your re-map is very, very impressive, to say the least.

 

Works: Would it be possible to post the AF-ratio graphs on the 91 and 93 octane dyno runs?

 

Dave, I see nothing suspicious about your being cautious about your products specifics. I suppose that you have no other protection from "pirates." However, I would love to visit your facilities and talk to a customer or two about their take on what your flash has done for thier cars. Is that possible?

As it stands today, I intend to go with you or those "other guys" in Pleasanton but am leaning toward you because of your soon to emerge H2O injection system. I think your numbers are reasonable considering you are only doing a re-tweak on the factory settings. It also seems prudent to keep things as un-obtrusive and inconspicuous as possible.

It is interesting that the Mitsu engineers have left such a wide margin for safety (enrichment) on such an other wise well tunned car. It crashes the MPG and I imagine the emissions as well, but given the limited dynamics covered by our smog tests here in CA it seems that factory ECU can fly "under the radar." My sense here is that the criteria driving this decision had to do with warranty issues for the Mitsu "bean counters" while maintaining resonable performance. After all It does "spank" the 2000cc wrx and most other stock cars near its price.

 

I'd also be curious about A/F ratio's and also...is the turbo pushing more than 19psi of boost?

 

Peak boost remains unchanged. Our A/F ratio is the result of careful planning and extensive R&D -- it is healthy, happy and perfectly safe.

-- DavidV

 

David, although we know that peak boost remains unchanged, is it safe to assume that some adjustments to boost profile across the RPM range have been made?

We also know, based on your feedback, that although you aren't ready to share the A/F ratio info yet, that it is within a margin of safety..... right?

Is this margin of safety totally compromised if someone installs an EBC or MBC to run, lets say, 19.5 psi of boost to redline? As a 93 octane Works re-flash owner with an MBC sitting on my shelf, I would be interested in knowing your position on this.

Obviously one way to put this to bed would be to dyno/datalog the car with the re-flash alone, and then slip on an MBC and determine if there are any detonation issues.

I think I know your answer, but feel like it needs your confirmation.The last thing I want to do is undermine the tuning that went into the re-flash to begin with;-)

N10S

 

Again wll I have to reflash everytime I upgrade, so to a 3.0 02 housing and a 3.0 turbo back with a new FMIC and IC piping?


IS there a way to buy one without sending in my ECU until I Mail in a new unit?

 

I think that has been put to rest as a big YES. David says exactly what you want in the post right above yours.

IMO your compromise is all in your tuning. I wouldn't expect Works to be able to guarantee anything working in addition to their own product, but no one can say that. Get a data logger and find out.

Exactly, but you can't expect Works to dyno test every single hypothetical situation that could possibly exist.

 

First let me say that so far the 93 octane Works re-flash has been very smooth and seems to work effectively.

Mayhem, thanks for the reminder.... generally speaking we all know that the Works ECU re-flash is supposed to be tuned within a margin of safety per Davids comments.

I like David and trust that he is giving us good info, but the A/F ratio detail is important data that we really should have access to.

I will be open and honest in saying that I didn't realize that the tuning was done on a Dynojet. I have no issues with the Dynojet for making full-throttle Dyno runs, but my concern is that it is very difficult to tune across the RPM range with an inertia style Dyno like the Dynojet.

Alternatively an eddy current style dyno allows part throttle dyno tuning, ensuring more granularity in boost, fuel and timing settings across the entire RPM range. Perhaps I am way off base here, but I don't think so.

I can tell you without datalogging, though, that my car is running very crisp and lean. So much so, that I would actually be afraid to run an MBC at say 19.5 to redline, especially during the hot summer months in the midwest.

Realistically I don't expect David to tell me that its ok to use an MBC or EBC, as I know the only mods he will guarantee are those that he sells and has fully tested.

I really just want to know if we are talking reasonably lean, at say 11-11.5:1,or really lean at 12:1 or greater. I personally think its the latter, and since I don't have access to a good AWD dyno yet, and don't have a datalogger I will have to continue to operate conservatively and let the FBC manage boost for now.


N10S

 

David needs to post the A/F just out of plain old good customer support... more and more people are being turned off to Works due to the over abundance of secrecy...

 

Zeus: "more and more people are being turned off to Works due to the over abundance of secrecy..."

That would surprise me. Or at least if true, it's unfair.

I see no issue with Works (or anyone else) using a proprietary or trade secret approach their products. Though I'm no expert here at all, I'd be amazed if reverse engineering were not a problem in this field. Works has provided performance information and this forum, among others, provides direct input from Works' customers. My reading of some of these posts, again as a non-expert, is that some individuals are trying to garner information toward their own products or individual applications. That's hardly fair to Works or anyone else putting time and resources into a product whose value and competitive strength are determined by the open market.

Let's hear more from people using these products in terms of value, performance, and support.

My $0.02.

Doug.

 

I don't think releasing A/F graphs along with the dyno charts is any big deal. If my memory serves me correctly Shiv provided the A/F info along with his XEDE dyno charts.I don't think Shiv was worried about anyone reverse engineering his tuning efforts because he knows its a very complex process that can't be replicated by simply taking a look at A/F ratios.

If someone really wanted to dissect Works tuning effort they would just pay their $450 and have their own personal copy.Again this doesn't mean they would have access to code, but they could certainly get the A/F ratio information.

I think that David/Works deserves to enjoy the success of rolling out a nice set of products. At the same time I doubt that revealing this info is going to make any kind of a negative dent in Works business. I really think that instead it will have the opposite effect, and people will respect the fact that this info is openly provided.

One thing David has done, is use caution in the release of the Works products to ensure that the appropriate amount of R&D goes in before the product goes out. This is one of the reasons I like Works.

BTW- I don't think that David/Works is being purposefully secretive, but instead just being protective of their work. I do however agree with Zeus' comments though that some may interpret the ommission of this info as a tactic to hide something, and hence risk being tagged "secretive".

Either way I am cool with whatever David decides to do...it is his decision to make. He may have some very legit reasons for not wanting that info out yet, and I will respect his wishes.

N10S

 

N10S
I couldn't have said it better...

Doug Axelrod
...What makes you think I'm not already a Works customer? You get no more info after buying the product than before... You can't tell me that they have not tried running a little more boost... at the least, the paying customers should get a little more info that may help them decide if a MBC would be a safe bet, and to what degree... I've had several board members contact me after my recommending the Works flash... more than half of those seem to be heading a different direction after not being able to obtain any real information about the product... For Christ sake, the A/F is not something that can be hidden... and would be of great help to those who don't have access to the simple equipment to read it for themselves.

 

Well, I am gon aask teh same question again, and maybe I'll get an answer.

What is the boost level across the board, I mean I want from 0-8000 rpms.

DOes it spike to the 19.5 PSI like the stocker and then taper off to 16PSI? Does it hold boost out longer?


Has ANYONE run a works ECU with a MBC setting boost to a Static 19.5 PSI? Jsut saying as my Evo stock has yet to see 19.5 psi, maybe 18.5 max, but does hold out 16.5 nicely.

I need to know exactly what these boost numbers are, and if you can make a flash to run 19.5PSI to the red, cuz with my experience with turbo cars, you want the boost to remain static all the way to the red, not fall off, I ran 21PSI to 7500RPMS on my TSI AWD, if that older POS can do it with a SAFC, my new evo sure can, so what are the exact settings, no "well it may spike, I really need to know what this ECU will do to my car, seriously, and if you can make a 19.5 PSI to red at 8000 RPMS for 93 octane.


Thank You

 

Hi David,

Any Dyno plots for the whole package installed (brain, arpeture, exhale).