Product Announcement: Brain Flash P2
Here is the crux of the matter the cars are so new and most folks have not even had the cars for 6months almost any black art ECU flashing company working out of a garage will have a sweet deal as they lean out the car remove this remove that in the beginning its all great. Just wait 1-2 years when guys are rebuilding motors because of blown rods etc... never give in to cheap cheap when it comes to your ECU managing your 30K car. that is insane I could understand on exhaust or intake but guys we are talking about the brains of the car. I am taking a careful thought out upgrade path, and the WORKS 93 is a great solid flash the P2 is probably very well thought out, but hey its your car and if you could save a few bucks then I guess that is the best thing for your engine mangement.
No offense to anyone, but heres my problem
1. How has works shown that they are not just another black art ecu flashing company. Because they have a nifty website that plays music and David comes here? (personally, I don't doubt Works legitimacy, but its not like they are Dinan) P1 works great, but so does all its competitors.
2. Is ecu tuning really that hard? Lots of tuners that know what they are doing do this stuff everyday in other formats, (ex exede, MBC & AFC.) I'm having a hard time believing that works has spent the last 10 months feverishly working at the dyno on this reflash. There just isn'nt that much to this.
To hold boost untill redline involves changing one variable in the programing. Then you adjust AFR and timing to match and there you go. This isn't black majic rocket science.
1. How has works shown that they are not just another black art ecu flashing company. Because they have a nifty website that plays music and David comes here? (personally, I don't doubt Works legitimacy, but its not like they are Dinan) P1 works great, but so does all its competitors.
2. Is ecu tuning really that hard? Lots of tuners that know what they are doing do this stuff everyday in other formats, (ex exede, MBC & AFC.) I'm having a hard time believing that works has spent the last 10 months feverishly working at the dyno on this reflash. There just isn'nt that much to this.
To hold boost untill redline involves changing one variable in the programing. Then you adjust AFR and timing to match and there you go. This isn't black majic rocket science.
Last edited by slt; Oct 10, 2003 at 08:26 AM.
Well your wrong its not just cranking boost but here is a little quote from Aquamist a system I am installing in the next couple months "Do you know how many engineer-hours a car manufacturer spends perfecting a single chip? You guessed, a lot! Making a change as drastic as different injectors, you are throwing away all the thousands of programming lines ... simple things like stable idling-speed, transient throttle-response, injection-rate and ignition-timing variations on air temperature against coolant temperature on trailing throttle ... that they have spent years developing. Unless these factors are set just right, your beloved car will not be very nice to drive. Assuming your car's manufacturer would willingly hand over its source code, do you think any independent chip tuner would spend 18 months of his time (including testing your car in Arctic and desert conditions!) so as to programme a little chip to run perfectly with your new high-flow injectors? And even supposing he were willing and able to do all that, are you prepared to wait that long?"
See your now making assumptions and stating opinions as if they were facts- The fact of the matter is the dynoflash runs a richer AFR than works. Also big Al (who is no slacker when it comes to tuning) is running the show with the full resources of Pruven performance at his disposal. I dont care for AL but his accomplishments speak for themself. He has had the fastest Subaru and the fastest EVO at one time or another and has never blown a stock motor! So if its mudslinging you were after save it.
BTW dynoflash has confirmed that they use the EXACT same reflash software that works does. Nobody is taking a downgrade by switching to dynoflash in fact with the added custom dyno tune it is a safer, more custom, and makes more power- advantage dynoflash
BTW dynoflash has confirmed that they use the EXACT same reflash software that works does. Nobody is taking a downgrade by switching to dynoflash in fact with the added custom dyno tune it is a safer, more custom, and makes more power- advantage dynoflash
Originally posted by BLKEVO8
Here is the crux of the matter the cars are so new and most folks have not even had the cars for 6months almost any black art ECU flashing company working out of a garage will have a sweet deal as they lean out the car remove this remove that in the beginning its all great. Just wait 1-2 years when guys are rebuilding motors because of blown rods etc... never give in to cheap cheap when it comes to your ECU managing your 30K car. that is insane I could understand on exhaust or intake but guys we are talking about the brains of the car. I am taking a careful thought out upgrade path, and the WORKS 93 is a great solid flash the P2 is probably very well thought out, but hey its your car and if you could save a few bucks then I guess that is the best thing for your engine mangement.
Here is the crux of the matter the cars are so new and most folks have not even had the cars for 6months almost any black art ECU flashing company working out of a garage will have a sweet deal as they lean out the car remove this remove that in the beginning its all great. Just wait 1-2 years when guys are rebuilding motors because of blown rods etc... never give in to cheap cheap when it comes to your ECU managing your 30K car. that is insane I could understand on exhaust or intake but guys we are talking about the brains of the car. I am taking a careful thought out upgrade path, and the WORKS 93 is a great solid flash the P2 is probably very well thought out, but hey its your car and if you could save a few bucks then I guess that is the best thing for your engine mangement.
First off I have spoken with Al seems like a nice enough family guy. His car is completly built from the ground up so the chances of his motor blowing are going to be close to none unless he pushes it or gets a really bad detonation. If everyone here got ARP conerod bolts, head bolts used 96 octane then have at it crank boost and throw in those cams. Most are just throwing stuff at the car and not addressing some of the internals and that is all I am getting at with some folks having possible future problems. I beleive WORKS was late to the game in the beginning if memory serves me. Buschur and some others were quick to the plate and Works was under attack for taking their time. Well those were engineering hours. Look for what its worth it sounds like you don't want to go with Works thats fine I am sure they will miss you but you are the one doing the bashing and its on Works. So move on and buy what you want it's your car.
Once agian pretty far fetched. no ones changing injectors here- it becoming vividly apparent you dont have much of a clue about ECM tuning- I admit I am no pro but I have tuned quite a few cars and watched more proficient people even more. These are stupidly simple modifications to the code that any decent tuner could do in a couple of hours on the dyno and street. No ones touching CL fueling/timing/boost - In fact Ive witnesed many a shadetree tuner tune near perfect on the street with just a bosst gauge/ EGT/ WBo2- now with Gtech graphing and road dynos it is really cake. ECU tuning is no black art its a practice in discipline
Originally posted by BLKEVO8
Well your wrong its not just cranking boost but here is a little quote from Aquamist a system I am installing in the next couple months "Do you know how many engineer-hours a car manufacturer spends perfecting a single chip? You guessed, a lot! Making a change as drastic as different injectors, you are throwing away all the thousands of programming lines ... simple things like stable idling-speed, transient throttle-response, injection-rate and ignition-timing variations on air temperature against coolant temperature on trailing throttle ... that they have spent years developing. Unless these factors are set just right, your beloved car will not be very nice to drive. Assuming your car's manufacturer would willingly hand over its source code, do you think any independent chip tuner would spend 18 months of his time (including testing your car in Arctic and desert conditions!) so as to programme a little chip to run perfectly with your new high-flow injectors? And even supposing he were willing and able to do all that, are you prepared to wait that long?"
Well your wrong its not just cranking boost but here is a little quote from Aquamist a system I am installing in the next couple months "Do you know how many engineer-hours a car manufacturer spends perfecting a single chip? You guessed, a lot! Making a change as drastic as different injectors, you are throwing away all the thousands of programming lines ... simple things like stable idling-speed, transient throttle-response, injection-rate and ignition-timing variations on air temperature against coolant temperature on trailing throttle ... that they have spent years developing. Unless these factors are set just right, your beloved car will not be very nice to drive. Assuming your car's manufacturer would willingly hand over its source code, do you think any independent chip tuner would spend 18 months of his time (including testing your car in Arctic and desert conditions!) so as to programme a little chip to run perfectly with your new high-flow injectors? And even supposing he were willing and able to do all that, are you prepared to wait that long?"
You have obviously missed the point I was making. I was eluding to the fact that Mitsubishi has an army of engineers working on building the ECU the thought of one guy coming along with a laptop and overnight have perfected a ECU mod is crazy. At least Works you know has put some real time and thought into the flash I am not saying that is the end all. The true way to do this is spend $5000 on a motec tune. Also check in with works they are tweaking A/F and Timing fact. Also as you probably know rev limite, governor, and now boost. Look I am not getting in a pissing match with you, I have had the time to talk to a local serious guy that preps and builds Rally Evo's, and Subys for real SCCA races as well as some phone time with the engineers at Works and read many many articles and spent alot of time on this forum. bottom line don't buy it get what you want its your car good luck.
Look Im sorry for the personal dig in my last post. I am not trying to intice anyone into a pissing match thats not my intention, but the "engineer" thing is BS it takes a tuner and guess what he isnt trying to meet emissions standards or gas mileage requirements his only need is to safely make power within the limits of the hardware. Its simple really it is- Its not like works has actually engineered anything all they did was buy a software program and sit at a pc viewing lines of code thats been converted into easy to read packets. Now if we are talking about engineering look at the Xede or the TXS UTEC they are actually engineering hardware from the ground up specifically for the EVO
Thank you for keep wishing me luck I apppreciate that and you are right I am going XEDE, but I am enlisted by other local members to help with their needs of reflash and its many benifits. I am just wading through the jargon and applying my limited knowledge of the subject to help the community.
Thank you for keep wishing me luck I apppreciate that and you are right I am going XEDE, but I am enlisted by other local members to help with their needs of reflash and its many benifits. I am just wading through the jargon and applying my limited knowledge of the subject to help the community.
Originally posted by BLKEVO8
You have obviously missed the point I was making. I was eluding to the fact that Mitsubishi has an army of engineers working on building the ECU the thought of one guy coming along with a laptop and overnight have perfected a ECU mod is crazy. At least Works you know has put some real time and thought into the flash I am not saying that is the end all. The true way to do this is spend $5000 on a motec tune. Also check in with works they are tweaking A/F and Timing fact. Also as you probably know rev limite, governor, and now boost. Look I am not getting in a pissing match with you, I have had the time to talk to a local serious guy that preps and builds Rally Evo's, and Subys for real SCCA races as well as some phone time with the engineers at Works and read many many articles and spent alot of time on this forum. bottom line don't buy it get what you want its your car good luck.
You have obviously missed the point I was making. I was eluding to the fact that Mitsubishi has an army of engineers working on building the ECU the thought of one guy coming along with a laptop and overnight have perfected a ECU mod is crazy. At least Works you know has put some real time and thought into the flash I am not saying that is the end all. The true way to do this is spend $5000 on a motec tune. Also check in with works they are tweaking A/F and Timing fact. Also as you probably know rev limite, governor, and now boost. Look I am not getting in a pissing match with you, I have had the time to talk to a local serious guy that preps and builds Rally Evo's, and Subys for real SCCA races as well as some phone time with the engineers at Works and read many many articles and spent alot of time on this forum. bottom line don't buy it get what you want its your car good luck.
Evolved Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 697
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From: Nothern CA
Zeus has been an advocate for works and is in fact one of the three customers who convinvced me to look at works in the first place.
Works is a bunch of engineers not a bunch of marketing geniuses.. they produce a good product but they would be well served by better marketing advice.. mad past customers is the worst kind of promotion you can have outside of lawsuits.
The published performance spec.s for the $2200 system from the guy in Pleasonton are 4.4 - 4.6 0-60 and ETS of 12.7 - 12.8 for 91 pump gas.. What are the numbers from the Works mod.s? dyno smyno.
Works is a bunch of engineers not a bunch of marketing geniuses.. they produce a good product but they would be well served by better marketing advice.. mad past customers is the worst kind of promotion you can have outside of lawsuits.
The published performance spec.s for the $2200 system from the guy in Pleasonton are 4.4 - 4.6 0-60 and ETS of 12.7 - 12.8 for 91 pump gas.. What are the numbers from the Works mod.s? dyno smyno.
Last edited by WildRice; Oct 11, 2003 at 11:27 AM.
Originally posted by MP5
The fact of the matter is the dynoflash runs a richer AFR than works
The fact of the matter is the dynoflash runs a richer AFR than works
That is definately a P1 in the Dynoflash comparison, why would anyone buy a $750 P2 then go directly to Dynoflash and pay again. In the Dynoflash with boost control they made 10 more HP than the P1 I believe. WORKS claims 10-15 HP increase with the P2 so that would be about right. The Dynoflash is also with 1.5-2 hrs dyno time to make sure its right for your mods for $595, or $225 if you just send in your ecu. Dynoflash says all they have to do is change 1 setting in the code to get that boost to hold to redline where WORKS has spent months working on their P2 boost control with apparently the same results.
I think WORKS needs to drop the price to $500-$600 to be competitive if they are getting the same results and the flashes are equivalant. Dynoflash changes boost, timing, afr, etc so what exactly is the difference. Untill they are willing to get on here and explain why their P2 cost $750 vs $595 with dyno time or $225 without we won't know.
When Caymandiver gets the P1 vs P2 dyno results maybe we'll have some idea.
At this point from all the information Dynoflash has provided I think they are doing essentially the same thing with approximately the same gains. One is just doing it for a lot less.
I wouldn't be surprised to see to see flash options drop below $300 in a couple months once all the tuners get hold of the reflashing tool. At this point it seems like buying the newest computer. In a month it's not the newest fastest anymore. That is why for the price WORKS is asking at this point there has to be more, like free reflashes for uprades. Dynoflash has already come forward and set a new price standard and WORKS is trying to raise the price at the same time. Who do you think will be doing more business. Hopefully WORKS will realize it's more profitable to sell 100s of $500 reflashes vs a few $750 flashes.
At this point even though I have been happy with the product WORKS has delivered if it is shown that you can get essentially the same product with the same safety and drivability from Dynoflash I would have a hard time telling friends to go with WORKS.
I think WORKS needs to drop the price to $500-$600 to be competitive if they are getting the same results and the flashes are equivalant. Dynoflash changes boost, timing, afr, etc so what exactly is the difference. Untill they are willing to get on here and explain why their P2 cost $750 vs $595 with dyno time or $225 without we won't know.
When Caymandiver gets the P1 vs P2 dyno results maybe we'll have some idea.
At this point from all the information Dynoflash has provided I think they are doing essentially the same thing with approximately the same gains. One is just doing it for a lot less.
I wouldn't be surprised to see to see flash options drop below $300 in a couple months once all the tuners get hold of the reflashing tool. At this point it seems like buying the newest computer. In a month it's not the newest fastest anymore. That is why for the price WORKS is asking at this point there has to be more, like free reflashes for uprades. Dynoflash has already come forward and set a new price standard and WORKS is trying to raise the price at the same time. Who do you think will be doing more business. Hopefully WORKS will realize it's more profitable to sell 100s of $500 reflashes vs a few $750 flashes.
At this point even though I have been happy with the product WORKS has delivered if it is shown that you can get essentially the same product with the same safety and drivability from Dynoflash I would have a hard time telling friends to go with WORKS.
Last edited by mojo; Oct 10, 2003 at 11:01 AM.
I think mojo hit it dead on. The computer analogy is probably exactly what is going on. Winter is coming up so I have time before I need to decide on my next upgrades. Going faster doesn't do you any good when there's 2' of snow outside. I'm a bit of a work loyalist as they've earned my trust very quickly. I've been messing with tuners, shops and warehouses for parts for a long time and none have offered the customer srvc Works has, so I'll give them a chance and just sit back, wait and watch.
Originally posted by mojo
That is definately a P1 in the Dynoflash comparison, why would anyone buy a $750 P2 then go directly to Dynoflash and pay again. In the Dynoflash with boost control they made 10 more HP than the P1 I believe. WORKS claims 10-15 HP increase with the P2 so that would be about right. The Dynoflash is also with 1.5-2 hrs dyno time to make sure its right for your mods for $595, or $225 if you just send in your ecu. Dynoflash says all they have to do is change 1 setting in the code to get that boost to hold to redline where WORKS has spent months working on their P2 boost control with apparently the same results.
I think WORKS needs to drop the price to $500-$600 to be competitive if they are getting the same results and the flashes are equivalant. Dynoflash changes boost, timing, afr, etc so what exactly is the difference. Untill they are willing to get on here and explain why their P2 cost $750 vs $595 with dyno time or $225 without we won't know.
When Caymandiver gets the P1 vs P2 dyno results maybe we'll have some idea.
At this point from all the information Dynoflash has provided I think they are doing essentially the same thing with approximately the same gains. One is just doing it for a lot less.
I wouldn't be surprised to see to see flash options drop below $300 in a couple months once all the tuners get hold of the reflashing tool. At this point it seems like buying the newest computer. In a month it's not the newest fastest anymore. That is why for the price WORKS is asking at this point there has to be more, like free reflashes for uprades. Dynoflash has already come forward and set a new price standard and WORKS is trying to raise the price at the same time. Who do you think will be doing more business. Hopefully WORKS will realize it's more profitable to sell 100s of $500 reflashes vs a few $750 flashes.
At this point even though I have been happy with the product WORKS has delivered if it is shown that you can get essentially the same product with the same safety and drivability from Dynoflash I would have a hard time telling friends to go with WORKS.
That is definately a P1 in the Dynoflash comparison, why would anyone buy a $750 P2 then go directly to Dynoflash and pay again. In the Dynoflash with boost control they made 10 more HP than the P1 I believe. WORKS claims 10-15 HP increase with the P2 so that would be about right. The Dynoflash is also with 1.5-2 hrs dyno time to make sure its right for your mods for $595, or $225 if you just send in your ecu. Dynoflash says all they have to do is change 1 setting in the code to get that boost to hold to redline where WORKS has spent months working on their P2 boost control with apparently the same results.
I think WORKS needs to drop the price to $500-$600 to be competitive if they are getting the same results and the flashes are equivalant. Dynoflash changes boost, timing, afr, etc so what exactly is the difference. Untill they are willing to get on here and explain why their P2 cost $750 vs $595 with dyno time or $225 without we won't know.
When Caymandiver gets the P1 vs P2 dyno results maybe we'll have some idea.
At this point from all the information Dynoflash has provided I think they are doing essentially the same thing with approximately the same gains. One is just doing it for a lot less.
I wouldn't be surprised to see to see flash options drop below $300 in a couple months once all the tuners get hold of the reflashing tool. At this point it seems like buying the newest computer. In a month it's not the newest fastest anymore. That is why for the price WORKS is asking at this point there has to be more, like free reflashes for uprades. Dynoflash has already come forward and set a new price standard and WORKS is trying to raise the price at the same time. Who do you think will be doing more business. Hopefully WORKS will realize it's more profitable to sell 100s of $500 reflashes vs a few $750 flashes.
At this point even though I have been happy with the product WORKS has delivered if it is shown that you can get essentially the same product with the same safety and drivability from Dynoflash I would have a hard time telling friends to go with WORKS.
I really have been very happy with the WORKS products and customer service. I would like them to step forward and give their supporters a reason to continue to do so. I don't feel that P1 customers should have to do anything to get the very best price available on the P2, GB or not. We the are the ones who have been supporting them and promoting their P1 product even more so than they are. I really expected to get the same consideration that a new GB person would get. That just gets under my skin. We'll wait and see what WORKS comes up with. At this point they need to do something as they have already lost many potential customers and possibly prior ones. The market has changed in a few weeks and they are not adapting well, this is not a good sign. I really hope they will do something soon, P1-P2 is their major money maker.
I would say the P2 is doing at least what they claim 10-15 hp on top of the P1. They have delivered the product with the results they claimed for the price they asked. The price is just to high at this point. Not the same wow factor as the P1 over stock but with more conservative afr. Kind of a pain to install the new line. Doing the clutch line/restrictor took me less time. That is because I didn't have the car on ramps before sending in the ecu as I didn't know I would need to get under the car to install the P2 line.
Take care
I would say the P2 is doing at least what they claim 10-15 hp on top of the P1. They have delivered the product with the results they claimed for the price they asked. The price is just to high at this point. Not the same wow factor as the P1 over stock but with more conservative afr. Kind of a pain to install the new line. Doing the clutch line/restrictor took me less time. That is because I didn't have the car on ramps before sending in the ecu as I didn't know I would need to get under the car to install the P2 line.
Take care
