How to get back the control when sliding in a turn on snow
Jan 17, 2012, 07:43 AM
#18
Jan 17, 2012, 08:44 AM
#21
Above advice (AFAIK) is mostly correct for RWD cars in an oversteer condition.
Now with FWD, you are understeering and you power on to pull you in the direction you want. Assuming you are below the 'it doesn't matter what you do - you are skrewed' threshold speed
Maybe a little handbrake to rotate the car if needed.
With AWD i would expect the same as FWD (or better ) . Power on in the direction you want to go. I will practice first chance too and see if theory=reality.
Now with FWD, you are understeering and you power on to pull you in the direction you want. Assuming you are below the 'it doesn't matter what you do - you are skrewed' threshold speed
Maybe a little handbrake to rotate the car if needed.With AWD i would expect the same as FWD (or better
) . Power on in the direction you want to go. I will practice first chance too and see if theory=reality.
Jan 17, 2012, 08:53 AM
#22
First off, let me preference this by saying that I have been teaching performance driver for 7 year, primarily Rally Competition Driving as well as a military/SF/3-Letter acronym driving instructor... and a competitor in road Race, Rally and Baja 1000 desert racing.
What you experienced had more to do with proper throttle control than steering. And I put it that way because you could have corrected and stopped the first skid by doing one simple thing... the OPPOSITE of what you instinctively did.
Understand the dynamics of weight control...
ON throttle (even a little), weight transfers OFF the front wheels and onto the back.
OFF throttle (even a little), weight transfers OFF the rear wheels and onto the front.
Seems simple enough, but what 700 plus students have taught me over the years, is that they forget that applying weight to one of the car, LIFTS weight off the other.
You lifted off the throttle, lifted weight off the rear end of the car... making it LIGHTER. The rear end was already sliding because of broken traction and by lifting or braking a bit you made the rear end EVEN LIGHTER, giving it even LESS traction and exaggerating the slide.
Turning into the slide is correct but also understand the dynamics of steering in a slide.... FRICTION (Or what I like to call "landscape braking"). At some point, whether it be the scrub of the tires going sideways on pavement or the build up of debris such as snow, ice or gravel on the edges of the tire... the rear end WILL regain traction as some point as the car slows (inertial subsides and traction is regained) and at that moment... WHERE ARE YOUR FRONT WHEELS POINTED?
The car will go WHERE YOU ARE POINTED. WHY, because much of the weight is now ON THE FRONT. In a left turn slide with the tail out, you are pointed to the right. When the rear end catches, the car will turn to the right and start the cycle going to other way. Only this time, slightly exaggerated because you have suspension energy, tire energy and frictional energy all releasing at the same moment.
MOST people only get this "tank slapper" going twice and the third time, it loops or spins 180 degrees. This is the MOST common kind spin.
There is ALOT more theory that goes into this but suffice it to say, that each time the pendulum swings. it gains momentum because each time, the rear end is getting lighter and lighter and the front end, where all the traction is now, is getting heavier and heavier.
So that is the "why"... now the "how".
On the first slide, turn into the slide "a bit" and begin to apply throttle. NOT tire burning, rock-star wanna-be drifter style throttle, but enough to transfer the weight to the rear of the car and simultaneously begin to UNWIND the steering ALWAYS pointing the front wheels where you want the car to GO.
TWO KEY POINTS HERE...
1 - Use enough throttle, not to much.
2 - Use enough steering, not to much.
A good rule of thumb is, the higher the slip angle, the more steering and throttle is needed, but the goal is to get back to straight and leveling out the steering and throttle as you return to straight.
If done correctly, you will only turn the steering wheel a few degrees into the skid and then back to straight as you DRIVE the car out of the slide.
It is really that simple. You have broken rear traction and need to regain it. You do that by pressing it into the ground.
Just remember, you are always dealing with weight TRANSFER, so what comes off the rear, goes to the front and vice verse. So UNWIND the steering wheel to avoid the tank slapper and spin.
ONE MORE THING, before anyone says differently... It DOES NOT MATTER if it is a Front, Rear or All wheel drive. This principle holds true. The only thing that changes is what happens if you rock star the throttle. Spin the wheels, break the traction and destroy all the control you've just worked to gain back.
For more, practice, education or some drive time, you can reach me here or at several of the Rally Schools around the Country or in a private session near you
Scott
What you experienced had more to do with proper throttle control than steering. And I put it that way because you could have corrected and stopped the first skid by doing one simple thing... the OPPOSITE of what you instinctively did.
Understand the dynamics of weight control...
ON throttle (even a little), weight transfers OFF the front wheels and onto the back.
OFF throttle (even a little), weight transfers OFF the rear wheels and onto the front.
Seems simple enough, but what 700 plus students have taught me over the years, is that they forget that applying weight to one of the car, LIFTS weight off the other.
You lifted off the throttle, lifted weight off the rear end of the car... making it LIGHTER. The rear end was already sliding because of broken traction and by lifting or braking a bit you made the rear end EVEN LIGHTER, giving it even LESS traction and exaggerating the slide.
Turning into the slide is correct but also understand the dynamics of steering in a slide.... FRICTION (Or what I like to call "landscape braking"). At some point, whether it be the scrub of the tires going sideways on pavement or the build up of debris such as snow, ice or gravel on the edges of the tire... the rear end WILL regain traction as some point as the car slows (inertial subsides and traction is regained) and at that moment... WHERE ARE YOUR FRONT WHEELS POINTED?
The car will go WHERE YOU ARE POINTED. WHY, because much of the weight is now ON THE FRONT. In a left turn slide with the tail out, you are pointed to the right. When the rear end catches, the car will turn to the right and start the cycle going to other way. Only this time, slightly exaggerated because you have suspension energy, tire energy and frictional energy all releasing at the same moment.
MOST people only get this "tank slapper" going twice and the third time, it loops or spins 180 degrees. This is the MOST common kind spin.
There is ALOT more theory that goes into this but suffice it to say, that each time the pendulum swings. it gains momentum because each time, the rear end is getting lighter and lighter and the front end, where all the traction is now, is getting heavier and heavier.
So that is the "why"... now the "how".
On the first slide, turn into the slide "a bit" and begin to apply throttle. NOT tire burning, rock-star wanna-be drifter style throttle, but enough to transfer the weight to the rear of the car and simultaneously begin to UNWIND the steering ALWAYS pointing the front wheels where you want the car to GO.
TWO KEY POINTS HERE...
1 - Use enough throttle, not to much.
2 - Use enough steering, not to much.
A good rule of thumb is, the higher the slip angle, the more steering and throttle is needed, but the goal is to get back to straight and leveling out the steering and throttle as you return to straight.
If done correctly, you will only turn the steering wheel a few degrees into the skid and then back to straight as you DRIVE the car out of the slide.
It is really that simple. You have broken rear traction and need to regain it. You do that by pressing it into the ground.
Just remember, you are always dealing with weight TRANSFER, so what comes off the rear, goes to the front and vice verse. So UNWIND the steering wheel to avoid the tank slapper and spin.
ONE MORE THING, before anyone says differently... It DOES NOT MATTER if it is a Front, Rear or All wheel drive. This principle holds true. The only thing that changes is what happens if you rock star the throttle. Spin the wheels, break the traction and destroy all the control you've just worked to gain back.
For more, practice, education or some drive time, you can reach me here or at several of the Rally Schools around the Country or in a private session near you
Scott
Jan 17, 2012, 09:09 AM
#23
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No matter what type of car, this advice is absolutely correct. Look where you want to go, don't look at where the car is sliding. You will naturally steer in the correct direction. If the car spins, then just stand on the clutch and brake to stop the rotation.
Jan 17, 2012, 09:39 AM
#24
Best advice to avoid all of this is really simple just slow down. only go as fast as you can control. but if you get into a situation listen to what RallyDSM said all true but also keep in mind that the car has a computer to help you in a situation and at times can accually hurt you rather than help
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