With that in mind, why is there not a "Sticky" thread in this (and the EVO forums too for that matter) that has a list of reading materials to alleviate this problem? I will start one. Everyone: please feel free to add anything to the list that you think could be relevant. I have some GREAT stuff to read to give some of you newer members a pointed direction to head in. There is no such thing as a free lunch. You have picked a particularly intricate hobby, and with that comes a fairly large amount of recommended reading (assuming that you have no automotive background what-so-ever).

 

TINSTAAFL

That should be the name of the thread. Speak to a Mod about that 1st though, just in case.

 

I already posted my list. The moderators can do with it what they will. What has been posted so far is not for my benefit (especially the papers that I had to dig through my ginormous pile of car notes and **** to find).

 

Alright man, i'll check it out.

 

Yeah, and feel free to add stuff, too.

 

Ahh, I misread.

 

Tim's car was tuned in a multi shifting real world driving mode where boost pressure was being monitored and set for WOT as one would actually drive the car in real life.

Tim's car was never set to 26psi of boost, ever here as you will see below. You are welcome to your opinion, however you are lacking many facts and hope that you choose to ask any questions you like in order to obtain the info you need to form an informed opinion.

As you will read below, the one gear dynosheet is a basis to start multi-gear tuning and is not left in the ECU so what is being compared is not his one gear pull, however the PERFORMANCE of the vehicle has been optimized for real world driving conditions. If it is at the expense of a one gear pull whp going lower once multi gear tuning has been done, we do not care as the car is driven in multi gear mode so the overall E.T. and trapspeed are improved despite the single gear pull possibly going down if tested with the multi gear tune.



What happens when you put a car tuned for the street or a correctly loaded Mustang Dyno that mimics the proper load on the wheels and put it on a "dumb" Dynojet with rollers that weigh more than the car's weight, it will build additional load in order to spin the "dumb rollers" (not eddy loaded properly) which is not the natural way the car would drive on the street.

Putting a car on a dynojet where the force needed to spin the rollers is greater than the force on the driveline would be on the street WILL INCREASE the boost as if the car was traveling uphill. Boost is relative to load. Too much load or UN-NATURAL load on the car will have boost deviate from how it would actually operate on the street in real world conditions.

How many 2009 Ralliart owners jump in their car and stick it in manual shift mode in 3rd or 4th gear and drive around all day like that?

The answer is no one. We tune all cars, especially Ralliart and MR's as if the car was actually on the street. We will spend a little time on a one gear dynosheet and then once the worthless sheet of paper is printed (for SST trans cars), we actually use the dyno to correctly tune the SST vehicle for normal everyday use in an actual driving and shifting mode. Dynojet 424x is unable to correctly load the vehicle properly not only under one gear pulls, but also during the rolling road tuning of the car as it would operate on the street.

Mustang Dyno AWD-500 is able not only to load the car for its exact weight but also aerodynamics, placing additional load on the vehicle the faster it goes just as you would have the wind blowing back on the windshield and front of the car.

The STATE of tune for a SST equipped 2009+ Ralliart and MR when it leaves our Mustang Dyno facility is that of one that will demonstrate maximum performance on the street or track in a regular shifting mode.

Here is Tim's datalog of wide open throttle quartermile performance complete with BOOST, AFR and RPM.

What happened to 26psi? As we stated when you force an automatic twin clutch car to drive as it is not designed for and put it on a machine that makes the car move a heavier weight than it would take to move the car on the street you will get screwed up results which is why we do not tune that way.



To reiterate. We will tune a single gear pull for a basis for posting a dynosheet however we change the tune once the dynosheet is saved so the customer has an optimized tune from 1st-6th gear to be used in the real world on the street as we datalog and record not only engine vitals during this multi gear tuning process, but also performance, whp and tq with boost are also measured so an entire quarter mile of performance data can be analyzed such as how much power in each gear.

It is also important to tune under this method in order to insure the car is not knocking as it shifts and or knocking as it reaches the higher gears which is common of inexperienced tuners who only tune one gear. The customer always wonders why their great one gear dynosheet traps low at the dragstrip. Its because what was tested in 3rd or 4th that didn't knock on the dyno does knock at the track from longer term wide open throttle use and higher coolant and intake air temps.

To summarize:

Was our tune taken and tested on a NON-LOAD BEARING dynojet with improper and unrealistic load placed on the vehicle? It appears so assuming our tune was not deliberately changed before testing. After all there is a target on our back by this competitor.

Was the same gear tested as we tuned for?
Not sure and really does not matter as the one gear tune is just a starting point for our multi gear performance tuning process.

Even if our tune was tested in the same gear elsewhere would the results represent how the car left our facility?
Absolutely not. Even if we left the car in it's one gear tune. Even if the car was a manual transmission stickshift, the load on a non-eddy brake Dynojet is not representative of the proper load the car would have on the street nor an Eddy Load Bearing Dyno like a Mustang Dyno AWD 500. David Buschur got rid of his Dynojet for just this reason. Track and real world representation of the tune is not the same as how a Mustang Dyno tuned vehicle performs on the street and track.

Was the 1320'quartermile performance, whp, tq and boost plot tested by the Dynojet facility? No. If they had, they would have recorded maximum 20-22psi peak under normal on road driving conditions just as we tuned it for.

No, there was no before and after datalogging of boost, AFR or quartermile performance timing and mph info as #1 Dynojet non-eddy brake dynomometers are unable to place the correct load on the car for quartermile testing as they spin "dumb rollers" without realistic load placed on the driveline.

Dynojets are unable to test timed quartermile perfomance as they lack this feature under a Mustang Dyno as they are primitive compared to the MD.

If they had, one would be able to test how the car ACTUALLY drives before and after with regards to boost, afr, performance data E.T. and mph testing so that a conclusion can be drawn.

Summary: What was actually tested and completed then by placing a MD-AWD-500 dynotuned Ralliart on a Dynojet non-eddy brake dyno?

The AFR and boost was tested under a one gear pull which is not how the car runs in real life. When the car is shifting and boosting the AFR measured in a one gear pull is much different than in a real life driving situation. All that was measured was how we did NOT tune the car for as that is NOT how the car drives.

What happens when you tune an SST transmission equipped vehicle for one gear and let the customer go?
The car performs differently on the street and whatever one gear dynosheet obtained is not applicable to the actual performance experienced on the street when the customer actual gets in their car and wants to drive it real world conditions.

What was tested of TTP's tune on the independent Dynojet?
A multi gear realistic driving tune, programmed specifically for on-road performance was forced into running in one gear only which in no way represents the actual performance of the vehicle on the street as the car does not drive that way in real life. A dynosheet reflected forcing a twin clutch automatic SST to run in only one gear changing the AFR's and boost it would run in real life shifting and driving WOT.

I hope this information helps SST owners better understand the tuning process at TTP, the importance of tuning your car on an Eddy Load bearing Dyno such as a Mustang, Dyno Dynamics, Mainline type of dyno and why comparing a one gear pull on a SST car is such a stupid, meaningless idea and not representitive of our tuning. The true test is on the road with QUANTITATIVE results such as actual quartermile performance E.T. and MPH which is the true representation of a customer's results.

The work we do is for the benefit of the customer and the optimum performance of the vehicle. We do not tune one gear dynosheets and then let the customer go. The difference in our tuning process is that we have not only the proper equipment to tune the vehicles in multi gear real world conditions, but also the experience to know what a dis-service it would be to the customer to tune for a dynosheet and let them go thinking this one gear pull of a 6sp tune is best for their car and overall performance of the vehicle.

 

im gonna use an exert here, from said "dumb" dynojet owner that in my opinion, is a perfect rebuttle to the 8000 word essay you just wrote.

As i stated above i was never calling you out, talking down to your work or you, i was simply pointing out some factual that i had seen and read previously. at no point was it an assault on you or your company, and to martyr me as the only person who knows or believes your mustang dyno rates high is simply silly, and i wont justify your attempt to defend it any further.

Weather or not that car was tuned to 26 or not is not the question, it was running it, and it shouldnt have. Further more, when it comes down to it, they were able to boost his power numbers up by REMOVING a mod that you not only suggested, but have coined a TTP boost hose upgrade.

Either way, i dont care, my point from the beginning till now has remained the same, on a dyno that reads our car in the 195-210 range stock, making 280 whp on said dyno on the stock turbo is VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE. When it reads 225-230 as they do on your dyno, its more realistic, but is worth nothing more then the 3 clicks of the keyboard it takes to write 280 on your screen. i personally would much rather have 270 whp on a dyno i put 197 stock onto, then 285 on one i stock ran 230 on

 

First of all no one stated "dumb" dynojet owner. "Dumb" dynojet is a term used to describe a non computer controlled roller load. There are 424xLC2 load bearing dynojets. This is not one of them.

You obviously did not read our post. The car was NOT running it. People do NOT drive Ralliarts around in 3rd or 4th gear only, punching the gas at 2500-7500rpms everywhere they go. Not only is that not how the car is driven in real life, it is not driven like that at the track either.

Putting a Ralliart on a Dynojet 424, jamming it in one gear and trying to spin rollers pulling more load on the car than it does on the street is an un naturally occuring condition. The car does not run like that in real life and is why the boost allegedly does not represent the boost it was tuned for. It was not tuned to run on a Dynojet under un natural forced conditions not experienced in real world driving. It was tuned for optimum performance in real life driving it like a normal person does on the street and track actually shifting gears.

Based on the datalogs already posted, the car was tuned perfectly and did not require an $85 primitive boost controller + installation costs to achieve perfect boost response and optimum real world and quarter mile performance.

We do not desire to have the best dynosheets, but we do strive for the best in tuning ability and real USEABLE performance.

BTW, on our dyno a 2010 Ralliart WITH HKS FILTER and METAL BOV makes 218whp.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/09...gineering.html

 

Please explain to us all how a manual boost controller is primitive when you yourselves install a boost hose upgrade that is nothing better then a hurricane supercharger. The notion that installing a 20 cent piece of plastic in a boost line to trick the car into making more boost is a better less primitive option to a boost controller is a joke with no ends.

Further more, i agree that you strive to make the best maps and tunes, and to keep your customers happy, however, the customer went to a different shop for a reason, felt more comfortable there (as he states a few times in his post on the other thread) his car was over boosting, and they were able to make more power, on a more reliable tune, so how does any of what you said pertain to this instance. Call it the exception to the rule all you want good sir, the fact remains, all that i said is true.

 

Moving to a mechanical boost controller when you have ECU controlled boost able to be programmed duty cycles every 500rpms is moving backwards in technology.

Someone wanted to sell a part and get an install fee, period.

Our boost hose mod is a custom tailored orifice created for the individual car as some boost higher than others. Some need them, some do not to achieve the desired boost level and one size does not fit all.

How much do you think a brass pill costs sold by AMS and GST? I have priced them for less than 20 cents a piece and they are not customized per car. Boost mapping will vary from car to car.

The customer got a lean code because he blew the FPR line off which happens in 20% of Evo X's that boost higher than stock. Customers have no idea what it means when an SES light comes on and what system too lean means. It means the voltage for the front O2 sensor is out of normal range. In Tim's case he claims Jiffy Lube pulled off his FPR line.

He called me personally and I told him to check the FPR line which he put back on and was the reason for his code.

When owners don't understand their cars they rely on empathy and advice from companies, companies in the business of generating income.

In our professional opinion, the car will run slower at the track than it would have before the recent changes. I would put money on it.

 

Great, and he didn't have time slips from before, so you have hedged a bet on an impossible scenario.

I wish that I could speak my mind, but I would definitely be banned.

As long as we probably have the attention of the moderation staff, can I please get my thread Stuck in the Ralliart General Discussion about reading materials for the new members? (I believe that it reads: Recommended Reading Materials.)

 

By the way, this thread has gone way off topic, and I believe that it will continue to do so. It needs to be locked before things get out of hand.

 

Actually we do have recorded quartermile performance recorded.

 

lol i just wanted opinons on reaching 280 whp on MY CAR lol..but thanx i got a little idea out of this