Blown motor--opinions?
My Evo specific ignition mapping has taken a while to draw up. I would be happy to tune your vehicle. We have to come to to florida again in the end of november for a few more cars. Give us a call tommorow at the shop for details.
856 495 2227
Nick
Precision dyno
856 495 2227
Nick
Precision dyno
The ~12deg of timing at mid-high rpm is not what did the damage, it was the 17deg at LOW rpm and high boost. I'm not going to debate CFTs tuning abilities, simply facts... 17deg of timing on pumpgas at 3000rpm and 22psi is clearly too much for the EVO motor. I'm not sure why that timing was left like that in the map.. perhaps an oversight? I dunno. The end results were very unfortunate.
I hesitate to comment on ignition maps in general, because there are SO many factors which come into play including: timing sync, pickup delay comp, head surface thickness, etc, etc... allowing some cars to take more "timing" than others. But that 17deg down low on 93oct is a bit excessive no matter what.
I've spoken to Robert off-line about the situation, but since I was specifically referenced in the post, I figured I would comment in this thread. I'm happy to help whoever needs it.
/vijay
I hesitate to comment on ignition maps in general, because there are SO many factors which come into play including: timing sync, pickup delay comp, head surface thickness, etc, etc... allowing some cars to take more "timing" than others. But that 17deg down low on 93oct is a bit excessive no matter what.
I've spoken to Robert off-line about the situation, but since I was specifically referenced in the post, I figured I would comment in this thread. I'm happy to help whoever needs it.
/vijay
Last edited by racegate; Oct 21, 2005 at 10:29 PM.
Originally Posted by dsm95hybrid
In case this was not the same guy as Mr. 87 octane, there are a few pieces of this puzzle missing. For one, why have you not posted that you accidently sent the wrong map online for others to scrutinize? Every tuner in here wants to jump on CFT, an authorized dealer and trained tuner for the EMS system all the while the map in question is not even the map it was tuned with. You neglected to tell anyone that when you went back to Rolo to have him review the map, he had to show you how to access the correct map. You sent a stock one online.
Number #2, if you blew the motor due to a poor tune, how is it that upon teardown of the motor you neglected to mention the important fact that the impeller blades of the turbine housing were all broken? Tell me now you can break all the impeller blades on a poor tune with "aggressive timing"? It is because the motor likely ingested a foreign object which broke the impeller blades, sucking them too into the motor and the pistons try to compress all that foreign material, forcing it in the path of least resistance which unfortunately was through a quarter sized hole in the side of your block.
Before another tuner gets eaten alive by a one sided biased opinion, take a few facts into consideration and form your own opinion. CFT has tuned a many fast cars. Their talents extend well beyond just the AEM product. Time and time again I see customers of Rolo say "push it harder", "boost it higher", "I want 500whp" blah blah blah. Rolo draws the line as where to stop before the client 10 out of 10 times no matter if they have a spare built motor ready to drop in. He does not play that game. How he tunes in the dyno is how the cars are designed to run on the street, pending they use the correct octane for the given tune.
Number #2, if you blew the motor due to a poor tune, how is it that upon teardown of the motor you neglected to mention the important fact that the impeller blades of the turbine housing were all broken? Tell me now you can break all the impeller blades on a poor tune with "aggressive timing"? It is because the motor likely ingested a foreign object which broke the impeller blades, sucking them too into the motor and the pistons try to compress all that foreign material, forcing it in the path of least resistance which unfortunately was through a quarter sized hole in the side of your block.
Before another tuner gets eaten alive by a one sided biased opinion, take a few facts into consideration and form your own opinion. CFT has tuned a many fast cars. Their talents extend well beyond just the AEM product. Time and time again I see customers of Rolo say "push it harder", "boost it higher", "I want 500whp" blah blah blah. Rolo draws the line as where to stop before the client 10 out of 10 times no matter if they have a spare built motor ready to drop in. He does not play that game. How he tunes in the dyno is how the cars are designed to run on the street, pending they use the correct octane for the given tune.
Originally Posted by Widebandphillip
Couple things i want to point out. One, there is no way in hell a stock startup calibration for an evo looks like that. Two, and i'm just guessing at this one, part of the sparkplug could have been chewed out and spit up into the turbine. I'm also assuming if something large happen to be injested, it wouldn't make it past the intercooler fins. It is totally possible the wrong cal was posted, but in no way that cal is a base cal for ANY car.
Originally Posted by dsm95hybrid
In case this was not the same guy as Mr. 87 octane, there are a few pieces of this puzzle missing. For one, why have you not posted that you accidently sent the wrong map online for others to scrutinize? Every tuner in here wants to jump on CFT, an authorized dealer and trained tuner for the EMS system all the while the map in question is not even the map it was tuned with. You neglected to tell anyone that when you went back to Rolo to have him review the map, he had to show you how to access the correct map. You sent a stock one online.
Number #2, if you blew the motor due to a poor tune, how is it that upon teardown of the motor you neglected to mention the important fact that the impeller blades of the turbine housing were all broken? Tell me now you can break all the impeller blades on a poor tune with "aggressive timing"? It is because the motor likely ingested a foreign object which broke the impeller blades, sucking them too into the motor and the pistons try to compress all that foreign material, forcing it in the path of least resistance which unfortunately was through a quarter sized hole in the side of your block.
Before another tuner gets eaten alive by a one sided biased opinion, take a few facts into consideration and form your own opinion. CFT has tuned a many fast cars. Their talents extend well beyond just the AEM product. Time and time again I see customers of Rolo say "push it harder", "boost it higher", "I want 500whp" blah blah blah. Rolo draws the line as where to stop before the client 10 out of 10 times no matter if they have a spare built motor ready to drop in. He does not play that game. How he tunes in the dyno is how the cars are designed to run on the street, pending they use the correct octane for the given tune.
Number #2, if you blew the motor due to a poor tune, how is it that upon teardown of the motor you neglected to mention the important fact that the impeller blades of the turbine housing were all broken? Tell me now you can break all the impeller blades on a poor tune with "aggressive timing"? It is because the motor likely ingested a foreign object which broke the impeller blades, sucking them too into the motor and the pistons try to compress all that foreign material, forcing it in the path of least resistance which unfortunately was through a quarter sized hole in the side of your block.
Before another tuner gets eaten alive by a one sided biased opinion, take a few facts into consideration and form your own opinion. CFT has tuned a many fast cars. Their talents extend well beyond just the AEM product. Time and time again I see customers of Rolo say "push it harder", "boost it higher", "I want 500whp" blah blah blah. Rolo draws the line as where to stop before the client 10 out of 10 times no matter if they have a spare built motor ready to drop in. He does not play that game. How he tunes in the dyno is how the cars are designed to run on the street, pending they use the correct octane for the given tune.
I posted I think second in this thread, and have absolutley nothing bad to say about any tuner or company. I did not know of the situation nor what company may or may not have tuned the car. I simply said that since we travel often I would be more than happy to help him retune when he is ready.
Now again I know CFT and they come very highly recommended. That is why we held a tuning day there. They are a great group of guys and helped us out alot when we came down. I have complete confidence in them.
The last comment is that whenever I hear of an AEM problem I try to help. Specifically because they seem to get a bad rap from customers that (A) have tuned themselves (B) taken it to a tuner that didin't have much experience.
From the look of the map I saw it Looked BAD. I hope that in fact it was not the same map.
End of disclaimer.
Last edited by Precision Dyno; Oct 23, 2005 at 05:41 AM.
Originally Posted by alpha
Heard very good things about you from Miguel and Jerry today 
Let miguel know we will be down again at the end of the month.
Originally Posted by Precision Dyno
Thank you. they were there for the tuning day and very good people. Jerry is a hell of a hobiest. I would love for him to do that full time. He is very talented and meticulous.
Let miguel know we will be down again at the end of the month.
Let miguel know we will be down again at the end of the month.
I will let Miguel know. I'm going to be ordering Miguel's new toy here soon. Maybe next time you are down I will be around.
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
From: St. Petersburg, FL
Originally Posted by dsm95hybrid
In case this was not the same guy as Mr. 87 octane, there are a few pieces of this puzzle missing. For one, why have you not posted that you accidently sent the wrong map online for others to scrutinize? Every tuner in here wants to jump on CFT, an authorized dealer and trained tuner for the EMS system all the while the map in question is not even the map it was tuned with. You neglected to tell anyone that when you went back to Rolo to have him review the map, he had to show you how to access the correct map. You sent a stock one online.
Number #2, if you blew the motor due to a poor tune, how is it that upon teardown of the motor you neglected to mention the important fact that the impeller blades of the turbine housing were all broken? Tell me now you can break all the impeller blades on a poor tune with "aggressive timing"? It is because the motor likely ingested a foreign object which broke the impeller blades, sucking them too into the motor and the pistons try to compress all that foreign material, forcing it in the path of least resistance which unfortunately was through a quarter sized hole in the side of your block.
Before another tuner gets eaten alive by a one sided biased opinion, take a few facts into consideration and form your own opinion. CFT has tuned a many fast cars. Their talents extend well beyond just the AEM product. Time and time again I see customers of Rolo say "push it harder", "boost it higher", "I want 500whp" blah blah blah. Rolo draws the line as where to stop before the client 10 out of 10 times no matter if they have a spare built motor ready to drop in. He does not play that game. How he tunes in the dyno is how the cars are designed to run on the street, pending they use the correct octane for the given tune.
Number #2, if you blew the motor due to a poor tune, how is it that upon teardown of the motor you neglected to mention the important fact that the impeller blades of the turbine housing were all broken? Tell me now you can break all the impeller blades on a poor tune with "aggressive timing"? It is because the motor likely ingested a foreign object which broke the impeller blades, sucking them too into the motor and the pistons try to compress all that foreign material, forcing it in the path of least resistance which unfortunately was through a quarter sized hole in the side of your block.
Before another tuner gets eaten alive by a one sided biased opinion, take a few facts into consideration and form your own opinion. CFT has tuned a many fast cars. Their talents extend well beyond just the AEM product. Time and time again I see customers of Rolo say "push it harder", "boost it higher", "I want 500whp" blah blah blah. Rolo draws the line as where to stop before the client 10 out of 10 times no matter if they have a spare built motor ready to drop in. He does not play that game. How he tunes in the dyno is how the cars are designed to run on the street, pending they use the correct octane for the given tune.
2. I told Rolo and Sergio that the impeller blades had nicks in them, not that they were broken. The impeller blades are powered by exhaust gas, right? That being the case, it makes perfect sense to assume that they were damaged by the broken piece of the piston that exited through an exhaust port and into the turbo. But since you brought it up, even if the damage could have been caused by something being injested into the turbo, it would have been because the intake system was installed incorrectly by CFT.
During the engine replacement process, I found plenty of other evidence that supports my belief that CFT did less than professional work in this case:
Only one bolt was holding the starter on.
One of the bolts to mount the clutch was actually an exhaust heat shield bolt
Two bolts were missing from transmission housing
Parts of the ACT clutch were installed backwards (needed a new pressure plate)
The back of the radiator was covered in wrench dings
Bottom line: the car was less than 9 months old with ZERO mods before I took it to CFT. CFT is the only place to EVER do any work on this car. Less than two weeks after the tune, it breaks while opening the throttle and producing peak (22 psi) boost in 6th gear at 50 mph. And the only response from CFT has been that this is my fault because I should know better than to go WOT in high gear because it puts "too much load" on the engine.
That's just plain wrong.
wow, ive done several clutches...i cant think of anything that could be installed backwards. If you did, manage to put somthing in backwards, it simply wont go back together. Now if you put the clutch disc in backwards, it high centers in the flywheel kind of......
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Newbie
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22
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From: St. Petersburg, FL
Originally Posted by rraulston
wow, ive done several clutches...i cant think of anything that could be installed backwards. If you did, manage to put somthing in backwards, it simply wont go back together. Now if you put the clutch disc in backwards, it high centers in the flywheel kind of......
When they pulled mine off, they found that all those prongs were bent to hell, and the second metal ring was actually put OUTSIDE the pronged ring! So somebody actually had to disassemble the ACT clutch pressure plate. I don't know--maybe they took a used one off somebody else's car. They never did give me the packaging.
Originally Posted by Precision Dyno
...
Tried sending you a PM.