robi

iTrader: (24)

T-hill has the corners you are talking about (and I think my 2:03's there first time at the track prove my point) what you fail to mention is the car scrubs off an amazing amount of speed in the corner just turning,(but under partial throttle) now add a car that is setup like mine and you can manipulate the throttle to get the rotation you want under various throttle levels and be spooling the turbo too. The biggest prob you seem to deny is that almost every EVO driver braking late and "pissing off" the outside front tire WILL overheat this tire and then they start going slower and slower. We put on EVO track days with over 30 EVOs and a TT at the end, the system I describe works. Also and the pro driver We had in the car for the OTC complained about the front end pushing until I "told him the EVO secret". Remember also we're talking TTs here, (since that is what everyone is using their EVOs for) not door to door racing because you can and will use diferent lines, and trail braking, (slower) to "protect" your position on the track if someone is trying to pass you.
Ask Sparcos pro driver Emiel(SP?) Who's a great guy. They changed the setup on the Sparco car at a test day they invited me to after riding in and driving my EVO, he stopped trail braking (and started going TWO seconds faster the very next lap) and Won the SCC/SS Timeattack the next week...Oh how do dirt oval drivers get around without brakes?

g6civcx

iTrader: (6)

Run wide in the middle of the corner, between the 2 apices. Roll off the throttle and begin rolling on again as you set the weight for the second apex. Your must roll off in the middle to corner, otherwise your entry speed for the second apex will be too high and at the wrong approach angle.

Run extra wide at the corner entry and apex late. Scrub off as much speed in the braking zone as possible because there will be no room in the corner entry for too much trail braking.

I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking about a long sweeper that opens up into an increasing radius corner? Or a choppy corner that require constant on-off throttle modulation?

Come out of the first corner and set up for the second corner, sacrificing the exit speed of the first corner in exchange for a faster exit speed out of the second corner.


Please critique and provide feedback

siegelracing

I was mostly asking robi how he would do these without trail braking. I have driven everything from stock to heavily built AWD's including Evos, STi, Porsche's Audi's, etc, and the Evo8 is the MOST classically handling of the awd (due to the open front diff) therefore the easiest, and most likely to be trail braked like any other car.

for some double apex's you trail brake past the first apex, sometimes all the way until you get it rotated back toward the second apex.

for the decreasing radius corner, again, normally you will be trail braking deep into the corner, until you can finally get setup for the late apex.

for a long sweeper there are often long apexes. Normally you would trail it in until you were almost to the apex before beginning to balance the car with the throttle. My point was just that there are MANY times that you should be shedding some speed on your way into the corner. The car will do it, like I said before, data acq shows that by the time you have relaxed to 60% brake line pressure the car can handle significant side loading also. To not use the whole traction circle is leaving time on the table.

It was somebody of Senna or Prosts caliber that said the last thing that they learned to do well was release the brakes. As in he had been jumping off of them too early, not smoothly releasing them while rolling into the corner, hence trail braking.

I'm not trying to start a massive debate, but I would like to hear how it could possibly be faster to not utilize the cars ability to shed speed and turn. Saying "Don't turn the wheel until you are all the way off the brakes" is like saying "Don't go to the throttle until you have the wheel all the way straight."

the car can threshold brake, then trail brake and begin cornering, then max cornering while balancing with the throttle, then as you roll toward full throttle you unwind the wheel, utilizing the capacity to accellerate and turn.

chronohunter

iTrader: (1)

Scott you are the voice of reason here. None of the people posting here are engineers or have had any professional instruction of racing experience. They are absolute EVO enthusiasts and do track days etc. and that is where they pull together this slow "accelerate through the corner" technique. They think in simple terms..."the earlier I'm on the gas (in the corner) the faster I must be going."

Some simple truths:

-If you set your EVO up to be able to be neutral mid-corner it WILL be spin prone if you try to trail-brake with it

-If you set you EVO up to be neutral mid-corner your mid-corner speed as well as you entry speed will be slower than it could be (even though you "love" the way your car feels and you are faster than 30 other EVO's)

-If you don't trail-brake your EVO you will be slower than you could be (even though again you may be quicker than all the other guys there)

-As I stated in my first post we all know the EVO is nose heavy, That means it requires more trail braking than say a tail heavy Porsche.

BTW I am not basing this on a few track days; I was the chief instructor for the world’s largest racing school and hold that position with my current company. I coach professional racers and set-up and race for an AWD team in Speed GT. I also give Vehicle Dynamics talks (through work) for over 50,000 people a year as well as train 300+ instructors (many names you would recognize) etc.

Get you heads out of the sand and think! Remember we are only talking about using this below ~70mph! Not high speed stuff. You do want to go faster don't you? For some this is as much a set-up issue as a driving issue. Buy the Skip Barber book "Going Faster" it will explain all in detail (it is simple physics). One last thought, just because you are the fastest guy at a given track day does not mean you are driving perfect, we can all improve (and should every time we go out). "Free your minds!"

I always hesitate doing these long "helpful" posts because no one responds to them. We are (Steve and I) are trying to help, not start a flame war. What we are describing is how every good professional driver would drive and set-up an EVO on a race track. Hope this helps

metaphysical

iTrader: (3)

Heh, I'll stay out of the debate, as I'm a novice. But Scott, the car is doing awesome. I had it retuned (previous tune had no air intake temperature sensor, no knock control, etc.) and of course a brand new Stage 3 Buschur Shortblock and Stage 2 head (and the car is now aligned properly). Your more than welcome to take the helm of my Evo sometime again! I would love to drive down south sometime and get some track time and instruction.

metaphysical

iTrader: (3)

Ohh, and this is one of the best threads on the site, ever.

dpardo

iTrader: (1)

Paul, Steve, Robi,

What tire temperatures do you guys recommend for the stock Advans?

chronohunter

iTrader: (1)

Not sure exactly about the temps on ADVANs but most street tires like to be @ or just below 200F.

Reading my above post It reads a little agressive, I don't mean to be. It's a little frustrating doing this on the internet.

dpardo

iTrader: (1)

Sorry!

I meant to say tire pressures !

meanmud

iTrader: (74)

Not to worry - most of us are just trying to hang on to all of that info.

How cool would it be to have Hans Stuck with Derek Bell at the bar after a race?

siegelracing

Coolio. Chrono, thanks for that. That's pretty much what I was trying to say. You said it very clearly. I tried to suggest Going Faster earlier, but nobody seemed to notice.
What do you do now? What team? Ever come to Atlanta? We are working on setting up a WRX or STi for Speed GT or something. I am hoping to work as a race engineer for a Grand Am team (or 2 ) It'd be great to do lunch some time or something.

JD, it's great to hear that you are back on the road / track. I have one spot left in a school that includes 2 other EVO's on August 26th. You would be more than welcome.

metaphysical

iTrader: (3)

Scott email me info on dates/times/costs/locations - jdg228@psu.edu

siegelracing

I'll drop you a line when I get back, most of the info is available here:

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=92372

I'll be home late tonight and get you the specifics,
Peace

robi

iTrader: (24)

tire pressures to follow but they will be deamed wrong as they will let the car rotate off full throttle with out the crutch of trail braking.

robi

iTrader: (24)

40 front 42+ rear (HOT)