g6civcx

iTrader: (6)

I'd be careful with throttle application. You don't want to power down too early. The car will want to run straight and tighten the line too much, not too mention that the power may kick in and run you straight into the grass.

urbanknight

iTrader: (14)

What about throttle induced oversteer? I know that AWD cars are capable of that, just not sure how. FWD is a different story: you throttle the first half of the turn and then let off for an instant to kick the rear end around (mainly only for decreasing radius turns), but AWD should be able to use the throttle without plowing. Anybody know?

g6civcx

iTrader: (6)

The Evo is not a car that you want to run sideways; it's going to be gone.

Folks, focus on picking the right line and picking the right gear and get your braking done right. Hell, just focus on not missing shifts and rolling the gas on smoothly.

There are a lot of things you can do with the car, but that doesn't mean you should do it because you have to know how to correct the situations you're getting into.


Yes, you can induce oversteer by lifting off the throttle rapidly. It will throw the weight forward. The cornering force will rotate the car by inertia.

You see it done in videos, and it looks cool, but what they dont' tell you is that it takes them a lot of takes and retakes to get the perfect drift. Even the pros screw up sometimes.

So just focus on the basic driving techniques. The rest will come naturally to you with time as your ability to feel the car improves. Progress a little bit at a time. Try to do just a little bit more than you did last time. Don't try to push yourself too much too soon.


All the people talking about the Evo being a drift car cracks me up If you want a good drift car, get an S13. Trust me. I know. I've had 3 of them

g6civcx

iTrader: (6)

Oh, and if you want to induce oversteer by lifting the throttle, do this:

1. Charge into the corner under hard throttle.
2. Turn in, and at the same time lift off the throttle rapidly.

The car will rotate and now you're oversteering provided you're going fast enough. You can also grab the handbrake or give the brakes a good jab with the left foot, or both.

So now you're sliding sideways out wide from the ideal apex. What do you do?

The Evo rotates very quickly. It's not smooth, gradual, or progressive like a RWD car. Its weight and weight distribution and sticky tyres will pitch the car hard into the oversteer.
You have to make steering correction while powering down. If you don't catch it just right, the car may hook and immediately tighten the line. Or it can pitch itself the other way around if you turn too quickly and then grab the brakes.

This is why you should never go into a corner too quickly. Getting off the gas pitches it sideways. Grabbing the brakes makes it worse.

silverr6

I agree with the above, trail braking is used a great deal in motorcycle racing but generally is used when one needs to make a pass up the inside and has to outbrake his opponent. It is a technique that a driver should learn and understand but at the same time it is something that is better left to an expert as a novice racer is best advised to focus on being smooth, smooth is fast.

siegelracing

Trail braking is simply defined as still being on the brakes after turning in. Read any of the books written by the experts, "Speed Secrets" by Ross Bentley, "Going Faster, Mastering the Art of Race Driving" by Danny Sullivan (the Skip Barber book), "Drive to Win" by Carrol Smith.

As for whether to use trail braking, of course. If you're not trail braking at least some, your not using the tires for all they're worth. It's called the traction circle. One of the two main components of car control. As a fact the car, any car can do quite a bit of turning and braking. To be using the tire to it's max, as you roll off the brakes you SHOULD be rolling into the steering. Check out:

http://www.siegelracing.com/tractioncircle.html

Here's a little excerpt from the materials that we give out at a school:

"How the grip of a tire is used is governed by the
Traction Circle. You can see that at full, or even
close to full braking, there is zero, or not much
traction available for cornering. That said, as
you have relaxed the brakes to just 90%, you
can roll in up to 44% cornering. At 80%
braking, you can get 60% cornering.
Yes, those add up to more than 100%, but it’s
not the Traction Square (straight lines that
add to equal 100) it’s the Traction Circle.

It IS possible to get more grip from a tire in
multiple directions than in one alone."


At full braking there is nothing left for cornering, but as soon as you begin to relax the brakes, there is room for some cornering. If you are not using this capability, you are not going as fast as you could be. True, while the front of the car is still weighted by some braking, the front tires will have more grip than the rear, therefore as you roll into the corner the car will be more inclined to oversteer. This can work well to promote rotation on the way in, but certainly a beginner must be careful not to spin it.

metaphysical

iTrader: (3)

When I purchased my JIC's John Mueller gave me one piece of driving advice and that was not to trail brake in the Evo. He then explain the way the AWD setup works (and gave me some tech jargon terms) and why you want to have the braking done before the turn. So, I'm no expert, but John is so I trust his driving advice, now I just need to get an alignment and practice it!

siegelracing

Hey Buddy,
How's it going? You rode with me, I trail braked your car into every corner, and it was pretty quick wasn't it

The AWD, especially the open front diff Evo, has nothing to do with trail braking. To jump all the way off the brakes before turning in is going from the edge of the traction circle back to the middle, essentially coasting for a moment before turning in. NO REASON. The car will happily begin turning as soon as the brakes have been relaxed from full braking.

Like I said, read about it from some of the best drivers in the world. Having the weight still on the front tires helps with the front grip in an inherently understeering AWD or FWD car. Either way some trail braking will almost always be faster. 1 you can brake later, carrying the straightaway speed longer, two you can use 100% of the tires all the way around, rather than having a point where you are not asking anything of the tires.

I promise, as you roll off the brakes, you should be rolling into the steering, as you roll into the throttle, you need to be rolling out of the steering. Ideally you will run the edge of the traction circle.

Try to remember riding with me, we definitely trailed it in...

siegelracing

It is where most people spin though. So it's not necessarily a bad piece of advice for somebody just getting into road racing. That said, I teach it from day one in my schools.

siegelracing

I don't know if anybody in this forum would be interested but here's a post on the schools.

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=92372

GT35REVO

lol, I trail into most turns, it's better then coasting

g6civcx

iTrader: (6)

Trail braking is used to set the weight to the outside front tyre, where the most traction is needed. You cannot use full braking because traction is needed for cornering. It will help to cope with understeer and induce oversteer.

It's a technique used to modify the line of the car under high cornering load. It's also good to keep the turbo spooling and brake with the left foot.

But it's also a good way to make your $30,000 car into a very expensive lawnmower

chronohunter

iTrader: (1)

My O my, a lot of well intended guessing going on here. There are a couple of good posts though. Here ya' go...The two rules for trail braking:

1. The more front weight bias you have the more trail braking you do

2. The faster you go the less you trail brake you do (4th gear and over, on the gas at turn-in like Robi suggests).

EVO's have FWD levels of front bias (60f/40r) so lots of trail braking with the EVO.
Now how do you do it? Hard braking always done in a straight line followed by a slow release of the brake as you turn in, simple thing to remember "the harder I corner the less I brake." Proportional release of the brake. It is a basic driver tool to kill understeer. If you set-up your EVO to not need trail braking you will have a very spin-prone car in transitions (a common thing with overconfident amateur drivers). Pro drivers know to have very mild understeer as the basic handling balance and you trail braking to adjust the attitude of the car to suit each corners needs. A car can be driven and set-up a variety of ways...this is the fastest and the safest. Hope this helps clear this up

Paul

robi

iTrader: (24)

And while you guys are still on the brakes my car is under throttle building boost and getting those seconds...that set my sig and keeps me at (or close to the front) the turbo changes everything cause the faster your back on spool the better your top speed at the next braking point...Oh I do agree with one thing tho' slightly tight at full throttle is a MUCH easier way of getting lower lap times...The difference is how good your suspensio tuner is...Mine has had YEARS in making evil handling dsm's the bane of euro sleds out west here.. and that makes a car that is close even faster...Oh back to Physics a tire ANY tire only has so much traction and if you are using it braking it's not doing you any good turning But keep trail braking guys it's like shooting fish in a barrel when we're at the race track. ;-).

siegelracing

For you to get ALL your braking done before turning in at all, you have to get on the brakes earlier than somebody who is going to trail the brakes into the corner some. So when you go to the brakes early, I just went by, still at full throttle, waiting for my later braking point.

Certainly exit speed is the most important thing when the corner is followed by a long straight, and if the corner is "short" (the opposite of a carousel) then you might be back to full throttle shortly after turning in, way before the apex, but there are plenty of times that you should trail the brakes into the corner all the way to a "slowest and most steering input point." The slower you are going, the tighter a radius you can be on. To be all the way off the brakes before you turn the wheel at all just means you are wasting, or not using, the cars ability to continue to shed speed while beginning to turn. For instance, a double apex turn, where your tightest turning, and therefore slowest moment should be between the apex's.

I have spent LOTS of time looking at Data Acquisition from professional race drivers. I can assure you they are making use of every 0.01 G the car can create.

Tell you what Robi, why don't you explain how you would take a double apex corner? Or a decreasing radius corner, or any corner that is long enough that it won't hold full throttle all the way through? Or for that matter, a corner that is immediately followed by a tighter, slower corner?