Lately there has been a lot of talk of the various new turbos comming out on the market.

It seems now certain based upon what I am hearing and what I am reading (posted below) that the ATP turbos GT 35 and 3037 which bolt to the stocik manifold are not working well in high rpms and lagging on spool up

When comparing these turbos which are ball bearing to the Buschur BR 440 and BR 500 kits one must realize that the Buschur kits include a custom cast and CNC machined exhuast manifold which is super high performance and which will allow the car to rev to 9,500 rpms or more with a totally flast power band

Here is a charateristic dyno sheet on the BR500 and stock engine - you can see its pulling flat all the way out to the red line



My point in sharing this information is to let you know that it takes more to make a well balanced kit than just slapping on a expensive turbo - you need a properly designed manifold to go with the turbo

The stock manifold is deigned to work with the stock twin scroll turbo and combned to get low end spool up and lots of trq down low

Obviously a racing turbo is going to need a new manifold to take advantange of a greater breathing capacity on top


Please keep this information in mine when choosing turbos

Also - please read the following information posted by Shiv at Vishnu who has been testing these turbos

"

 

"Hi guys,
Sorry... been busy at the shop. Yesterday was another looong day. We tuned an ATP 35R. Like the other cars, it had cams and a high flow cat. On pump gas, it did 310whp at 20psi which is spot on with what I expected it to do on 91oct. On 100oct, it did 380whp at 25psi. If it were catless, expect both numbers to be approx 20whp higher.

Conclusions so far:

The ATP 3071 is a small turbo. Not much bigger than the factory 16c. On the road, it'll hit 20psi by 3500-3600rpm. Maybe 200-300rpm earlier if equipped with a test pipe. It seems to reach an airflow limit around 320whp with boost tapering off to no higher than 20psi by redline. Other than that, it's a really good street turbo that offers a very potent midrange and good spool up.

The ATP 35R, on the other hand, is quite laggy on Stg 1+ car, not making full boost until 5000rpm with a cat. This is a quite bit laggier than the 35R on my car (running or custom tubular set-up) which makes full boost by 4000rpm. Of course, this is also with headwork, IC, intake manifold and test-pipe so it's not apples to applies. On 100oct, it made an easy 380whp without breaking much of a sweat. The only other issue I see with it (besides boost response), is what seems to be a top end restriction (beyond 6500rpm). It seems to roll-off way up top which may be due to the factory cast manifold. For comparisons sake, the tubular GT3037 set-up on our car (before we did headwork, manifold, etc,.) made the same power on pump gas but nearly 30whp more on 100oct, with most of that advantage coming in beyond 6500rpm. It also spooled up like the 3071. So yes, there does seem to be a compromise by using a cast manifold. I suspect with c16, an intercooler upgrade and a test-pipe, the GT35 will proved much improved boost response and be capable of making 430-450whp. For Dynojet equivalence, multiply numbers by aprox 1.15

Today and tomorrow, we'll be installing and tuning an ATP 3037 which I have the biggest hopes for. Some spool much quicker than the 35R without giving up much top end (since I think the primary top-end restriction is the manifold and not the turbo in the case of the GT35R).

That's it...

Regards,.
Shiv, under Dave's account..."

 

From what I am seeing the BR440 is going to be the best bang for the buck street pump gas turbo for those on the stock ecu or reflash / piggy back type set ups or a utec

If you are choosing a AEM or other stand alone system the BR500 or BR580 look like the best bang for your buck and will give you all the power your engine and or transmission can handle

As far as a high priced full kit - so far the winner to me looks like the AMS kit which really kicks major *** but is 2 times the price of the Buschur kit

IMHO the ATP set ups are not in the same leauge unless of course you consider the addition of a aftermarket exhast manifold - which I can tell you from experience will crack over time

I do NOT recomend the HKS set up for anyone who is not willing to take it off and have it rewelded every few weeks. For something that cost me $5,000 its ridicouls its made out of thin metal that will not last under street use.

 

Hi! Dynoflash, so what kind of exhaust manifold do you recomend for the
ATP gt3071r kit???

 

the concern i have about the buschur kits is that they are not water cooled, which seems like it may affect longevity. For most people on here, performance isnt the only concern, esp if the turbo goes out in only a few years.

 

Al, i think another thing that might be influencing the comparison is that a lot of these ATP turbos Shiv is tuning do not have nearly all the mods that the guys running the Buschur turbo have.

 

The harsh reality is that the old school old tech turbos that Buschur is using are the type that are used on disel trucks and will survive for over 100,000 miles or more. Without the water coolng all you have to do is make sure you let the turbo idel for a short while before you shut it down (turbo timer) and change your oil on a regular basis - other thenj that you will have no problems

The facts are that the dual ball bearing turbos do generally spool up slightly quicker an make a bit more power but they cost a LOT more and DO NOT last as long as the regular non ball bearing units

I have already gone all through all this ball bearing vs. non ball bearing stuff on my WRX and while the ball bearing stuff is neat it does not come without its own pitfalls

 

It amuses me no end that you can have an entire Buschur Stage 4 kit with reflash out the door and ready to run 11's for less than some of these other guys are spending and they still are missing many of the parts they need to have the car run properly - eg high flow cat, cams, ect etc etc


To me - and you can ask Dave Buschur about this directly to get his input - its not very prudent to do the turbo first as all it gets you is more lag and not even as much power as something like the stage 4 kit can make on the stock turbo

It makes more sense t do the exuaust, intake, cams, fmic etc etc - FIRST - so that when you add the turbo you will have a balanced set up that can take advantage of the parts

A forced induction system is a lot like a chain - only as strong as its weakest link

In the cas of the ATP kits the stock turbo manifold

 

I would prfer the BR 440 kit

But if you have your heart set on ATP kit - I sugest the DN Products tubular manifold - its a very good unit and its only about $500

However - as I said above - ANY tubular manifold WILL crack if you use it as a dialy driver - its just a question of how long

 

the only thing i hear wrong over and over is that the atp kit does not include a manifold, so is that the only fault the kit has???

because i see good numbers for it not including a manifold......imagine if u upgrade the manifold, then what numbers would we be seeing.....

 

How long until someone comes out with a direct replacement for the stock turbo? I want one without an adaptor that maintains the twin scroll setup? I bet we get a couple of options in the next 12 months. Also, if you're worried the tubular manifold will crack, buy the one with the million mile warranty. It can be found from EVOm vendors for less than $600.

 

Yes - you can add a manifold - however thats an additional expense. Also - a lot would depend on the design of the manifold you purchase. The main point is that the Buschur kit comes with the manifold included with the kit - AND - the manifold is specifically designed to work with the BR series turbos. Sure - casting and CNC machining a manifold friom scratch too Buschur lots of time and money to make - BUT - its a significant benefot to the end user.

I knew that using the stock manifold with a power house turbo like the Gt35 was just plain ridiculos - and now that we are seeing the results we are seeing that it does not work that well in practice.

 

This turbo stuff is driving me crazy....FWIW, i own 2 dodge Cumming turbo diesels and am a CAT mechanic. When towing with my truck pulling 15,000lbs boosting 25 psi for 300 miles, i dont believe for a second that ball bearing turbos are better. On cat haulage trucks producing over 2000hp, i dont think ball bearing turbos would last 15,000Hrs. Engine crankshafts use oil as the bearing, just like our engine. Why dont they use ball bearing on cranks??? THEY DONT LAST!! Now ime not saying for a minute that ball bearing turbos wont last you awhile, what ime saying is you have ABSOLUTELY nothing to fear from a standard bearing turbo. There is proof of this all the way back to WWII. No ime not selling Buschur stuff, and i may not even buy his kit, but the guy is telling you the truth...... I wouldnt mind trying Daves manifold with the 3071..........RRR

 

Since Al quoted me, I'll drop my 2c....

Al, both the BR kit and the ATP run cast manifolds. So they are comparable. The exception is that the ATP kit uses the nice twin scroll manifold which comes with the car and the BR manifold is cast in a foundry with grossly unequal length "runners".

With the ATP kit, you're not paying for another manifold because the factory one is about as good as cast manifolds get. What you are paying for is the other stuff that most people want: a modern BB turbo with both water and oil cooling and an external Tial 38mm wastegate. Both of which provide tangible gains as far as performance and reliability goes. If you believe otherwise, that's fine as everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

But you and I both know that both the BR and the stock manifold will be restrictive at high flow rates. This is why neither kits are exhibiting the peak power both you and I have realized with the GT-series turbos running tubular manifolds. That's the tradeoff. If a customer want more max power, he will have to go with a properly designed tubular manifold (or a really massive cast unit with large diameter runners). I think that assessement is as fair as it can be. I think we all know why BR uses old school oil-cooled turbos in their kits. Let's not try to misrepresent the reason by making it out to be something it isn't.

My 2c,
shiv

 

The ball bearing design on the GT-series turbos can handle thrust and axial loads far greater than any standard oil sleeve bearing turbos. Last I heard, Mitsubishi themselves ditched the Mitsubishi-manufactured turbos they ran in their WRC rally cars in favor of GT-series turbos for reliability/longevity reasons.

Running ball bearings in a crankshaft is a bad idea for more than a few reasons

Shiv