ATP turbos vs. Buschur BR440 and BR500 turbos
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From: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Since Al quoted me, I'll drop my 2c....
Al, both the BR kit and the ATP run cast manifolds. So they are comparable. The exception is that the ATP kit uses the nice twin scroll manifold which comes with the car and the BR manifold is cast in a foundry with grossly unequal length "runners".
With the ATP kit, you're not paying for another manifold because the factory one is about as good as cast manifolds get. What you are paying for is the other stuff that most people want: a modern BB turbo with both water and oil cooling and an external Tial 38mm wastegate. Both of which provide tangible gains as far as performance and reliability goes. If you believe otherwise, that's fine as everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
But you and I both know that both the BR and the stock manifold will be restrictive at high flow rates. This is why neither kits are exhibiting the peak power both you and I have realized with the GT-series turbos running tubular manifolds. That's the tradeoff. If a customer want more max power, he will have to go with a properly designed tubular manifold (or a really massive cast unit with large diameter runners). I think that assessement is as fair as it can be. I think we all know why BR uses old school oil-cooled turbos in their kits. Let's not try to misrepresent the reason by making it out to be something it isn't.
My 2c,
shiv
Al, both the BR kit and the ATP run cast manifolds. So they are comparable. The exception is that the ATP kit uses the nice twin scroll manifold which comes with the car and the BR manifold is cast in a foundry with grossly unequal length "runners".
With the ATP kit, you're not paying for another manifold because the factory one is about as good as cast manifolds get. What you are paying for is the other stuff that most people want: a modern BB turbo with both water and oil cooling and an external Tial 38mm wastegate. Both of which provide tangible gains as far as performance and reliability goes. If you believe otherwise, that's fine as everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
But you and I both know that both the BR and the stock manifold will be restrictive at high flow rates. This is why neither kits are exhibiting the peak power both you and I have realized with the GT-series turbos running tubular manifolds. That's the tradeoff. If a customer want more max power, he will have to go with a properly designed tubular manifold (or a really massive cast unit with large diameter runners). I think that assessement is as fair as it can be. I think we all know why BR uses old school oil-cooled turbos in their kits. Let's not try to misrepresent the reason by making it out to be something it isn't.
My 2c,
shiv
The interesting part is I am not seeing any choking off of power on top with the Buschur kits - in fact the opposite is true - both the BR500 and 580 start top pull harder and harder with more and more revs and reach peak whp at or close to the red line. This is contarary to the ATP kits which seem to "puke and die" for lack of a better term (credit to Noize)
I know that Dave Buschur has been doing this 4g63 thing longer that you and I have been tuning combined so when he selects a turbo I have to respect his vast experience and first hand knowlege.
I am pleased with the way the BR500 works with my reflash and the way it drives on the road. Its a real 500 whp capable turbo and is very driveable on the street with pump gas. The fact that it is very inexpesnive and practically bullet proof - those are just extra benefits as far as I am concerend - but those points are important never the less
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From: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
The ball bearing design on the GT-series turbos can handle thrust and axial loads far greater than any standard oil sleeve bearing turbos. Last I heard, Mitsubishi themselves ditched the Mitsubishi-manufactured turbos they ran in their WRC rally cars in favor of GT-series turbos for reliability/longevity reasons.
Running ball bearings in a crankshaft is a bad idea for more than a few reasons
Shiv
Running ball bearings in a crankshaft is a bad idea for more than a few reasons
Shiv
I find that after a while they start to make more and more noise when you turn off the key and the turbo is spinning and then they start to not be able to hold high boost as well
At that point you are going to have to spring 1300 for a new center as they are NOT rebuildable
I an not a turbo expert - I am just speakig from my own epxerience from the past 3 years with GT series turbos
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From: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Where are these 500awhp BR500 cars and what associated mods do they have?
Shiv
Shiv
Sorry Shiv you dropped to number 5
And of course - the Buschur Evo which has been making well over 500 whp for some time on the BR500 - stock block - aem and Buschur Stage 4 with head
Also - honorabl mention Robi's evo with the BR500 which made about 440 whp at the USCC with a through the mail tune !
Finally - my customer made 444 whp last week with the REFLASH on a stock block and heads with just Buschur Stage 4. With an agressive tune I and head mods I could prob hit 500 whp with a flash with this BR500 turbo
PS - when we record dyno numbers they are actual numbers - we do not have to make "conversions" or "adjustment" factors by imagonary figures to convert 'moon' dyno numbers o
Last edited by DynoFlash; Jul 25, 2004 at 07:27 PM.
So no one has made 500whp on an all-wheel drive dynojet with the BR500 yet? Even with c16 and test-pipes?
Shiv
PS. Last I checked, one of the world's biggest turbo manufacturers just bought a "moon" dyno Like Ralliart, Possume Borne, G-Force, STi, etc,....
Shiv
PS. Last I checked, one of the world's biggest turbo manufacturers just bought a "moon" dyno
Like Ralliart, Possume Borne, G-Force, STi, etc,....
Last edited by David@Vishnu; Jul 25, 2004 at 07:35 PM.
i was not speaking of the gt35 turbo, but the 3071 with the quicker spool, there are numerous people making numbers comparable to the br500 accept with no manifold to help out and an external wastegate. i just think there both good kits but the br500 arent making the power that is expected of them or at least on pump gas which is what 85% of the people would run and then if u do want to see results u need to have cams, head work, etc.. but ppl that got similar numbers on atp dont have those on there
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From: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Originally Posted by David@Vishnu
So no one has made 500whp on an all-wheel drive dynojet with the BR500 yet? Even with c16 and test-pipes?
Shiv
PS. Last I checked, one of the world's biggest turbo manufacturers just bought a "moon" dyno Like Ralliart, Possume Borne, G-Force, STi, etc,....
Shiv
PS. Last I checked, one of the world's biggest turbo manufacturers just bought a "moon" dyno
Like Ralliart, Possume Borne, G-Force, STi, etc,....What gets me is when you start with your imagonary correction figures by which you sugest your whp figures need to be multiplied by
e.g. "It made 320 whp on our dyno which is equal to XX dyno jet whp"
I find that very funny indeed
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From: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Originally Posted by o00o
i was not speaking of the gt35 turbo, but the 3071 with the quicker spool, there are numerous people making numbers comparable to the br500 accept with no manifold to help out and an external wastegate. i just think there both good kits but the br500 arent making the power that is expected of them or at least on pump gas which is what 85% of the people would run and then if u do want to see results u need to have cams, head work, etc.. but ppl that got similar numbers on atp dont have those on there
Originally Posted by Shiv
"Hi guys,
:
The ATP 3071 is a small turbo. Not much bigger than the factory 16c. On the road, it'll hit 20psi by 3500-3600rpm. Maybe 200-300rpm earlier if equipped with a test pipe. It seems to reach an airflow limit around 320whp with boost tapering off to no higher than 20psi by redline. Other than that, it's a really good street turbo that offers a very potent midrange and good spool up.
.."
:
The ATP 3071 is a small turbo. Not much bigger than the factory 16c. On the road, it'll hit 20psi by 3500-3600rpm. Maybe 200-300rpm earlier if equipped with a test pipe. It seems to reach an airflow limit around 320whp with boost tapering off to no higher than 20psi by redline. Other than that, it's a really good street turbo that offers a very potent midrange and good spool up.
.."
Last edited by DynoFlash; Jul 25, 2004 at 08:10 PM.
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From: Danville/Blackhawk, California
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Just to highlight what I am referring to about the 3071 - does not sound like a strong turbo to me and the dyno sheets I have seen so far support this discription If you accept what Siv is saying in the above quoted post he is apparently saying that the 3071 variety can not make beyond approx 320 'moon' dyno whp - - obviously this information must be digested as it seems the 3071 is weak on high boost
Shiv
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From: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
320whp on a DD dyno is approx 375whp on Pruven's dyno. And this is with a cat, a stock IC and no head work. With a just test-pipe and free-er flowing upgraded FMIC, it should be capable of reaching close to 400whp. While still providing full spool by 3200rpm. Yes, it's a small turbo. But it's also very responsive and well matched for many street driven applications. If 400whp on your dyno is "weak" then you may need to reconsider your marketing campaign
Shiv
Shiv
"it should" - famous last words. I met lots of people at the track who got to look at my tail lights who 'should' have been making X amount of power - post a dyno sheet or a time slipe and then we can talk
Right now - its only actually making 320 whp on your dyno and can not support over 20 psi which is a joke to me as IMHO any decent aftermarket turbo should be able to make power up to 30 psi with ease
My ole T3/T4 from a buick grand national that I put om my WRX would make power to 35 psi and it cost me like $350
Please make up your mind - first you say its a 'weak' turbo that falls of to 20 psi of boost and is choked off of air flow - - - now its a 400 whp power house - I'm confused !
I can only speak from experiece that the Buschur turbos, AMS and HKS all make power up to 30 psi (They might even make power over 30 psi but I did not turn up the boost higher )
No need to alter my marketing campain - you are sitting IN it right now
Last edited by DynoFlash; Jul 25, 2004 at 08:33 PM.
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From: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Originally Posted by evotomig
You forgot to give thanks to Turbotrix.
Al,
Approx. how much whp does it take on Pruven's dyno to run a 12.18@114.67?
Al,
Approx. how much whp does it take on Pruven's dyno to run a 12.18@114.67?