ATP turbos vs. Buschur BR440 and BR500 turbos
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Wait till you find out about the cost to upgrade from the Stage IV flash to the Flash for the 440 or 500 ! (Hint - its cheap) Less than a sensor for a stand alone.
thanks,
-Doug
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From: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Originally Posted by chickenbrest
Are you saying that you have a flash for the BR440 and the BR500??? Are the performance numbers similar to the ones David posted with the EMS???
thanks,
-Doug
thanks,
-Doug
The BR400 needs some more development which may take a bit longer as it seems the BR500 is very propular
I was just suggesting that once you have the Buschur Flash - its very inexpesnsive to upgrade from one stage to the next
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
You are exactly the sort of negative, toxic, arm chair quarter back that has nothing to add concerning cars or tuning to this forum and only posts insults, snide remarks and personal attacks.
i was waiting for that one. get yourself in a magazine. get into some shootouts. prove yourself. 
Wow! In general guys, thanks for the kind words. With all the fighting sometimes I wonder if I have any supporters left! haha
tampaturbo,
The question you asked is hard to answer. First, which ARP's, the head studs or rod bolts? I will answer both. Rod bolts I see being the limiting factor in the shortblock and I think it is more an RPM issue than boost. Keep the RPM under 7500 and they will withstand all the boost you can put to them. The head bolts stock have shown they will hold 30 psi on a PERFECT tune, put in just a little detonation and you will need the ARP's. I would suggest them anyway, you can install them in a few hours without pulling the head. Just do one at a time and start in the middle. I would recommend some extra ft. lbs. when torqueing them too. The 93 octane is just a limiting factor because of the detonation, which is usually what blows a head gasket.
Alleggerita,
The stock turbo will make 360 whp on our dyno on pump gas. The ported head at 400 whp picked us up around another 30 whp. I guess this means on pump gas the stock turbo with the right tune should make over 360 whp, maybe as high as 375 or so. I don't think you would get the same increase we did with the larger turbo.
Alex-Alex,
Thanks for the compliments for myself. I really don't believe what you said to Al though is justified. He is correct about when he started supporting me. I never met him until the Shootout last year. Seemed like a good guy then, I enjoyed talking to him, had a TON of enthusiasm, just as he does now. I guess I understand Al because we are a lot alike. We both stand up and argue about whatever it is we believe in. Most guys don't like to see it and I really have to put forth an effort to stop doing it. Each day I get to see one of the vendor's I argued with prove my points themselves, it is pretty rewarding that way.
Al called me after the shootout and said he had an awesome time, just as he typed here. He then started doing the flashes and noticed, without input from me, that when the cars he flashed on the dyno had our parts they seemed to always dyno more than the other cars with the same mods but different brands. He also called and told me this, I was of course happy to hear it. We ended up becomming friends from these phone calls and working together to make more power for less money than anyone else. When he came to our shop to get some flashes done the results were really outstanding.
I don't know what else to say. Al is a good guy, you have to give him a shot and forget about all the BS everyone brings up in the past. He knows his tuning. There are an awful lot of guys on this board and elsewhere running his flash and running fast and doing it reliably. 444 whp on a flash through the stock MAS is something I really didn't think we'd see and he did this on a bone stock engine and head. On our dyno, which is only 2wd, with a ported head, no MAS and the EMS on 118 octane the same turbo only made 505 whp. Hell he is making more power with the flash than any other tuner has with our same turbo kits and parts combination on other cars with the EMS! That says something and the fact that none of these guys have blown up say something too.
Just look at the forum from yesterday. Two seperate guys blew their cars up, both running the EMS, no fault of their own.
Anyway, enough of me kissing Al's ***!
I like the guy, atleast he's honest and I can gaurantee you that in this world that is the rarest thing you will ever find.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
tampaturbo,
The question you asked is hard to answer. First, which ARP's, the head studs or rod bolts? I will answer both. Rod bolts I see being the limiting factor in the shortblock and I think it is more an RPM issue than boost. Keep the RPM under 7500 and they will withstand all the boost you can put to them. The head bolts stock have shown they will hold 30 psi on a PERFECT tune, put in just a little detonation and you will need the ARP's. I would suggest them anyway, you can install them in a few hours without pulling the head. Just do one at a time and start in the middle. I would recommend some extra ft. lbs. when torqueing them too. The 93 octane is just a limiting factor because of the detonation, which is usually what blows a head gasket.
Alleggerita,
The stock turbo will make 360 whp on our dyno on pump gas. The ported head at 400 whp picked us up around another 30 whp. I guess this means on pump gas the stock turbo with the right tune should make over 360 whp, maybe as high as 375 or so. I don't think you would get the same increase we did with the larger turbo.
Alex-Alex,
Thanks for the compliments for myself. I really don't believe what you said to Al though is justified. He is correct about when he started supporting me. I never met him until the Shootout last year. Seemed like a good guy then, I enjoyed talking to him, had a TON of enthusiasm, just as he does now. I guess I understand Al because we are a lot alike. We both stand up and argue about whatever it is we believe in. Most guys don't like to see it and I really have to put forth an effort to stop doing it. Each day I get to see one of the vendor's I argued with prove my points themselves, it is pretty rewarding that way.
Al called me after the shootout and said he had an awesome time, just as he typed here. He then started doing the flashes and noticed, without input from me, that when the cars he flashed on the dyno had our parts they seemed to always dyno more than the other cars with the same mods but different brands. He also called and told me this, I was of course happy to hear it. We ended up becomming friends from these phone calls and working together to make more power for less money than anyone else. When he came to our shop to get some flashes done the results were really outstanding.
I don't know what else to say. Al is a good guy, you have to give him a shot and forget about all the BS everyone brings up in the past. He knows his tuning. There are an awful lot of guys on this board and elsewhere running his flash and running fast and doing it reliably. 444 whp on a flash through the stock MAS is something I really didn't think we'd see and he did this on a bone stock engine and head. On our dyno, which is only 2wd, with a ported head, no MAS and the EMS on 118 octane the same turbo only made 505 whp. Hell he is making more power with the flash than any other tuner has with our same turbo kits and parts combination on other cars with the EMS! That says something and the fact that none of these guys have blown up say something too.
Just look at the forum from yesterday. Two seperate guys blew their cars up, both running the EMS, no fault of their own.
Anyway, enough of me kissing Al's ***!
I like the guy, atleast he's honest and I can gaurantee you that in this world that is the rarest thing you will ever find.David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
to that
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Wow! In general guys, thanks for the kind words. With all the fighting sometimes I wonder if I have any supporters left! haha
tampaturbo,
The question you asked is hard to answer. First, which ARP's, the head studs or rod bolts? I will answer both. Rod bolts I see being the limiting factor in the shortblock and I think it is more an RPM issue than boost. Keep the RPM under 7500 and they will withstand all the boost you can put to them. The head bolts stock have shown they will hold 30 psi on a PERFECT tune, put in just a little detonation and you will need the ARP's. I would suggest them anyway, you can install them in a few hours without pulling the head. Just do one at a time and start in the middle. I would recommend some extra ft. lbs. when torqueing them too. The 93 octane is just a limiting factor because of the detonation, which is usually what blows a head gasket.
Alleggerita,
The stock turbo will make 360 whp on our dyno on pump gas. The ported head at 400 whp picked us up around another 30 whp. I guess this means on pump gas the stock turbo with the right tune should make over 360 whp, maybe as high as 375 or so. I don't think you would get the same increase we did with the larger turbo.
tampaturbo,
The question you asked is hard to answer. First, which ARP's, the head studs or rod bolts? I will answer both. Rod bolts I see being the limiting factor in the shortblock and I think it is more an RPM issue than boost. Keep the RPM under 7500 and they will withstand all the boost you can put to them. The head bolts stock have shown they will hold 30 psi on a PERFECT tune, put in just a little detonation and you will need the ARP's. I would suggest them anyway, you can install them in a few hours without pulling the head. Just do one at a time and start in the middle. I would recommend some extra ft. lbs. when torqueing them too. The 93 octane is just a limiting factor because of the detonation, which is usually what blows a head gasket.
Alleggerita,
The stock turbo will make 360 whp on our dyno on pump gas. The ported head at 400 whp picked us up around another 30 whp. I guess this means on pump gas the stock turbo with the right tune should make over 360 whp, maybe as high as 375 or so. I don't think you would get the same increase we did with the larger turbo.
I would like to talk to you on the phone sometime to. I would like to get your IC and piping. I know I will need the battery kit. How much is the smaller battery?
If I currently have a flash, does the ecu delete anything if the battery is disconnected? I figure, I will do the cams and everything else as you mentioned in your stage 4 kit before I decide on a turbo. But if I should decide, the BR440 would be best for street and noticable gain over the stock turbo with unnoticable lag compared to stock. Is that correct?
On the ARP comments, since I wasnt sure that you would have to choose between rod bolts or head studs. I thought they all came together as a kit. Anyway, are you saying that I wouldnt normally need the ARP's as long as I dont run the rpms past redline. I do not plan on running more boost that would cause detonation. I am assuming that 22psi would probably be the maximum to run on pump gas. Is that a true statement?
Thanks
Just for comparison guys here is Greedy's T67 kit I tuned last week, Mods on the car where Tomei Procams, 720cc injectors, greedy t67, sard fuel rail, ARP headstuds, greedy 80mm" titanium exhaust, 3" downpipe, and AEM. Everything else was stock and unported.
Car was great to drive when finished, spool up was instant. Dyno runs was made on PUMP GAS 24psi
Air Fuel was 11.3-11.4, and the guy road races the car and has no problems.
Last edited by BadazzCR; Jul 27, 2004 at 08:07 AM.
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Alex-Alex,
Thanks for the compliments for myself. I really don't believe what you said to Al though is justified. He is correct about when he started supporting me. I never met him until the Shootout last year. Seemed like a good guy then, I enjoyed talking to him, had a TON of enthusiasm, just as he does now. I guess I understand Al because we are a lot alike. We both stand up and argue about whatever it is we believe in. Most guys don't like to see it and I really have to put forth an effort to stop doing it. Each day I get to see one of the vendor's I argued with prove my points themselves, it is pretty rewarding that way.
Al called me after the shootout and said he had an awesome time, just as he typed here. He then started doing the flashes and noticed, without input from me, that when the cars he flashed on the dyno had our parts they seemed to always dyno more than the other cars with the same mods but different brands. He also called and told me this, I was of course happy to hear it. We ended up becomming friends from these phone calls and working together to make more power for less money than anyone else. When he came to our shop to get some flashes done the results were really outstanding.
I don't know what else to say. Al is a good guy, you have to give him a shot and forget about all the BS everyone brings up in the past. He knows his tuning. There are an awful lot of guys on this board and elsewhere running his flash and running fast and doing it reliably. 444 whp on a flash through the stock MAS is something I really didn't think we'd see and he did this on a bone stock engine and head. On our dyno, which is only 2wd, with a ported head, no MAS and the EMS on 118 octane the same turbo only made 505 whp. Hell he is making more power with the flash than any other tuner has with our same turbo kits and parts combination on other cars with the EMS! That says something and the fact that none of these guys have blown up say something too.
Just look at the forum from yesterday. Two seperate guys blew their cars up, both running the EMS, no fault of their own.
Anyway, enough of me kissing Al's ***! I like the guy, atleast he's honest and I can gaurantee you that in this world that is the rarest thing you will ever find.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Thanks for the compliments for myself. I really don't believe what you said to Al though is justified. He is correct about when he started supporting me. I never met him until the Shootout last year. Seemed like a good guy then, I enjoyed talking to him, had a TON of enthusiasm, just as he does now. I guess I understand Al because we are a lot alike. We both stand up and argue about whatever it is we believe in. Most guys don't like to see it and I really have to put forth an effort to stop doing it. Each day I get to see one of the vendor's I argued with prove my points themselves, it is pretty rewarding that way.
Al called me after the shootout and said he had an awesome time, just as he typed here. He then started doing the flashes and noticed, without input from me, that when the cars he flashed on the dyno had our parts they seemed to always dyno more than the other cars with the same mods but different brands. He also called and told me this, I was of course happy to hear it. We ended up becomming friends from these phone calls and working together to make more power for less money than anyone else. When he came to our shop to get some flashes done the results were really outstanding.
I don't know what else to say. Al is a good guy, you have to give him a shot and forget about all the BS everyone brings up in the past. He knows his tuning. There are an awful lot of guys on this board and elsewhere running his flash and running fast and doing it reliably. 444 whp on a flash through the stock MAS is something I really didn't think we'd see and he did this on a bone stock engine and head. On our dyno, which is only 2wd, with a ported head, no MAS and the EMS on 118 octane the same turbo only made 505 whp. Hell he is making more power with the flash than any other tuner has with our same turbo kits and parts combination on other cars with the EMS! That says something and the fact that none of these guys have blown up say something too.
Just look at the forum from yesterday. Two seperate guys blew their cars up, both running the EMS, no fault of their own.
Anyway, enough of me kissing Al's ***!
I like the guy, atleast he's honest and I can gaurantee you that in this world that is the rarest thing you will ever find.David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
The flashes are under development at this time - the Br500 flash is done and just needs 2 or 3 more beta tests before its ready to release
The BR400 needs some more development which may take a bit longer as it seems the BR500 is very propular
I was just suggesting that once you have the Buschur Flash - its very inexpesnsive to upgrade from one stage to the next
The BR400 needs some more development which may take a bit longer as it seems the BR500 is very propular
I was just suggesting that once you have the Buschur Flash - its very inexpesnsive to upgrade from one stage to the next
That is great news. Keep me posted on the progress. To be able to run either turbo without an EMS and still get similar power numbers is amazing and something I am very interested in. I am convinced that is the way to go for me personally. I love my Stage 4 flash and am confident that I will love the flash for the turbos as well.
thanks for all the great work,
-Doug
The i/c pipe kit is $330 with the BOV and in polished SS. The battery kit is $225, makes room for the kit and looses 20 pounds.
I don't recommend anything more than 20 psi on pump gas. The variables in the actual octane and quality of fuel you get from station to station just isn't consistant enough to put faith in getting good fuel.
I also believe that rather than running those extra pounds of boost and sacrificing the tune in most cases you would be better of with a little better tune and less boost.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
I don't recommend anything more than 20 psi on pump gas. The variables in the actual octane and quality of fuel you get from station to station just isn't consistant enough to put faith in getting good fuel.
I also believe that rather than running those extra pounds of boost and sacrificing the tune in most cases you would be better of with a little better tune and less boost.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Just for comparison guys here is Greedy's T67 kit I tuned last week, Mods on the car where Tomei Procams, 720cc injectors, greedy t67, sard fuel rail, ARP headstuds, greedy 80mm" titanium exhaust, 3" downpipe, and AEM. Everything else was stock and unported.
Car was great to drive when finished, spool up was instant. Dyno runs was made on PUMP GAS 24psi Air Fuel was 11.3-11.4, and the guy road races the car and has no problems.
__________________
The chart above looks really good. The mod list above is not believable though. No fuel pump upgrade on the car? Stock front mount intercooler on the car? No race gas in the mix at all?
I won't run a pump gas car at that kind of boost levels, too much variance in the gas you get at the pumps to risk it.
Impressive other than those few observations. Your last name isn't Wallace, is it?
Looking at some charts posted here and there of the turbo kits that are popping up. For comparisons sake I made a half asses chart below. The ATP and T67's were tuned with the AEM on pump gas at 24 psi, that is what was posted. Our kits were tuned with the stock ECU and Al's BuschurFlash.
ATP GT35R 24psi T67 kit 24 psi BR500 20 psi BR500 26 psi race gas
300 hp @4900 300 hp@5000 300 hp@4900 300 hp@4800
350 hp @5500 350 hp@5300 350 hp@5500 350 hp@5300
400 hp @6300 400 hp@5600 378 hp@5900-7,000 400 hp@5600
435 hp @7200 450 hp@6200 444 hp@6,000-7500
493 hp@7200
I don't have the dyno sheets from our shop on the AEM EMS tuning the BR500. Peak HP was 505 whp though, on race gas. I am really interested in putting our car on an AWD dyno with the BR580 kit on the car and seeing what it makes on pump and race gas. After the shootout I may go ahead and haul it to TT or Pruven for some dyno time. I believe we can make 600+ hp on the new turbo we are putting on today, it is an updated BR580 and should take the place of what we are running now. If these guys above really dyno'd those numbers on pure 100% pump gas I am impressed. If indeed they did then I will be very curious to see the numbers this new turbo out. We are starting the testing with a non-ball bearing unit and then putting a BB on. Not sure which will be on for the shootout.
Take care,
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Car was great to drive when finished, spool up was instant. Dyno runs was made on PUMP GAS 24psi Air Fuel was 11.3-11.4, and the guy road races the car and has no problems.
__________________
The chart above looks really good. The mod list above is not believable though. No fuel pump upgrade on the car? Stock front mount intercooler on the car? No race gas in the mix at all?
I won't run a pump gas car at that kind of boost levels, too much variance in the gas you get at the pumps to risk it.
Impressive other than those few observations. Your last name isn't Wallace, is it?
Looking at some charts posted here and there of the turbo kits that are popping up. For comparisons sake I made a half asses chart below. The ATP and T67's were tuned with the AEM on pump gas at 24 psi, that is what was posted. Our kits were tuned with the stock ECU and Al's BuschurFlash.
ATP GT35R 24psi T67 kit 24 psi BR500 20 psi BR500 26 psi race gas
300 hp @4900 300 hp@5000 300 hp@4900 300 hp@4800
350 hp @5500 350 hp@5300 350 hp@5500 350 hp@5300
400 hp @6300 400 hp@5600 378 hp@5900-7,000 400 hp@5600
435 hp @7200 450 hp@6200 444 hp@6,000-7500
493 hp@7200
I don't have the dyno sheets from our shop on the AEM EMS tuning the BR500. Peak HP was 505 whp though, on race gas. I am really interested in putting our car on an AWD dyno with the BR580 kit on the car and seeing what it makes on pump and race gas. After the shootout I may go ahead and haul it to TT or Pruven for some dyno time. I believe we can make 600+ hp on the new turbo we are putting on today, it is an updated BR580 and should take the place of what we are running now. If these guys above really dyno'd those numbers on pure 100% pump gas I am impressed. If indeed they did then I will be very curious to see the numbers this new turbo out. We are starting the testing with a non-ball bearing unit and then putting a BB on. Not sure which will be on for the shootout.
Take care,
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
So if I get the BR upper IC pipe then I need to sell off my existing Forge recirce for the one that you provide with the kit? And does the battery kit of $225 include the battery? Sorry to ask these questions, hence the communication through a phone conversation would be faster and maybe clear up some communication through the net.
Thanks
Thanks
