ATP turbos vs. Buschur BR440 and BR500 turbos
Some VERY good reading here!
BTW, I am one of the 700 + satisfied Dynoflash customers, and I must say that even after having and using the Utec, and having the flash for pump gas driving, my car after 30000 miles is running strong, and smooth! I couldnt be more happy more the Dynoflash tune. Right now, Im running the mail in flash for my mods which include cams(272 i/e HKS), turboback, filter, mbc, and when it was on the dyno last april, I dynod @ 328whp! Cant go wrong with that.
Ken
BTW, I am one of the 700 + satisfied Dynoflash customers, and I must say that even after having and using the Utec, and having the flash for pump gas driving, my car after 30000 miles is running strong, and smooth! I couldnt be more happy more the Dynoflash tune. Right now, Im running the mail in flash for my mods which include cams(272 i/e HKS), turboback, filter, mbc, and when it was on the dyno last april, I dynod @ 328whp! Cant go wrong with that.
Ken
The 347 hp graph was Stage 3 with the AFC if I remember correctly. The 401 was on the EMS.
I think something to consider here, since I don't have charts or even comparisons of all the different tuning combinations (Flash, AFC, EMS) is the most we could make running the heck out of the stock turbo was 390 whp and that was on straight race gas. While the EMS does add additional power, the just on this particular dyno chart I feel is mostly just from the turbo.
With the flash and Al tuning the BR440 kit I would actually expect to see around 370+ AWD dyno HP. I think Al told me a stock turbo's pump gas EVO on their dyno will only make in the 320-330 range.
I am going to have to start learning some computer things around here. The charts for the BR500/580 are in the computer in the dyno room. I would like to get the graphs out of there and post them but honestly don't know how to get them. Jarrod probably knows or can figure it out.
As soon as I can get them I will post more comparisons.
Someone shoot me a PM to remind me.
The turbo kit will work with any FMIC, the lower pipe is the problem and may require a little ingenuity to get on. The AMS FMIC works with it from what I have been told, this means the stock routed one should too.
I guess what I can do is if someone orders the turbo kit and FMIC at the same time I will sell them at $100 off.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
I think something to consider here, since I don't have charts or even comparisons of all the different tuning combinations (Flash, AFC, EMS) is the most we could make running the heck out of the stock turbo was 390 whp and that was on straight race gas. While the EMS does add additional power, the just on this particular dyno chart I feel is mostly just from the turbo.
With the flash and Al tuning the BR440 kit I would actually expect to see around 370+ AWD dyno HP. I think Al told me a stock turbo's pump gas EVO on their dyno will only make in the 320-330 range.
I am going to have to start learning some computer things around here. The charts for the BR500/580 are in the computer in the dyno room. I would like to get the graphs out of there and post them but honestly don't know how to get them. Jarrod probably knows or can figure it out.
As soon as I can get them I will post more comparisons.
Someone shoot me a PM to remind me.
The turbo kit will work with any FMIC, the lower pipe is the problem and may require a little ingenuity to get on. The AMS FMIC works with it from what I have been told, this means the stock routed one should too.
I guess what I can do is if someone orders the turbo kit and FMIC at the same time I will sell them at $100 off.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Dave & Al
Once agian this is not considered to be any flame of no sort. This site is made for useful information and i understand what you guys are saying about the kit. But here is some information that i found that i would like to know if you could answer for me.
Why Twin Ball Bearing?
Demands for improving acceleration response and for the reduction of so-called turbo lag are popular amongst performance enthusiasts who wish to take advantage of the enormous gains in power and torque delivered by turbochargers. In addition, bullet-proof reliability is required particularly at high turbocharger boost pressure levels as well as at extreme exhaust gas temperatures commonly found in high performance turbocharged engines.
In order to achieve crisp turbocharger response, a number of advances in turbocharger design have been utilized over the past decade. Primarily through the use of modern metals/ceramics in order to reduce the mass of the rotating assembly. However, significant gains have been made by reducing the friction of the rotating assembly - and this has meant a departure from traditional turbocharger designs.
Traditional turbocharger design employs a conventional plain bearing that runs on a film of oil. This is known as a floating metal bush.
The diagram below shows the turbocharger main shaft supported by floating metal bushes. Oil is fed through the bushes and forms a cushioning layer between the turbocharger shaft and the supporting bush. The shaft relies on a constant supply of fresh, clean oil over a very wide contact area in order to maintain sufficient clearance from the bush itself. A similar approach is used to support the turbocharger main shaft from thrust loads as well.
Whilst floating metal designs have served us well in the past, the frictional forces are relatively high. This results in sluggish turbocharger response and can be somewhat fragile in nature under extreme operating conditions.
Nissan attacked this very issue some 15 years ago on the GTR Skyline by developing a turbocharger bearing system that forms the basis of the true high performance modern turbocharger.
By utilizing robust ball bearings at either side of the turbocharger main shaft, this did away with the floating metal and thrust bushes.
As seen in the diagram below, the turbocharger shaft is supported by two ball bearing assemblies. These again are fed with engine oil, but no longer rely on a thin film of oil over a wide area to support the turbocharger shaft.
The result is an outstanding reduction of frictional torque on the rotating turbocharger assembly in contrast to the old fashioned floating metal bushes. The improvement in turbocharger response, particularly in the lower to mid turbocharger speed range is phenomenal
The graph below shows frictional torque versus turbocharger speed of both old fashioned designs and modern ball bearing turbochargers. Clearly evident are the improvements with ball bearing turbochargers - especially at the low speed range of under 60,000 RPM where friction losses are reduced by 40% to 50%. This translates directly into a quantum leap in turbocharger response.
And best of all for those who wish to push the limits, ball bearing design turbochargers provide significantly higher robustness by better supporting the rotating turbocharger assembly, as well as better spreading thrust loads over old fashioned methods.
Water Cooling
Whilst turbochargers began to be applied to passenger cars in the late 1970's in response to the energy crisis, the first generation passenger car turbochargers were derived directly from commercial diesel engines. Engine oil was used to provide both lubrication and cooling and whilst this was an effective compromise between cost, durability and performance, in high engine performance applications durability suffered through fouling of the turbocharger bearings through high turbine and bearing temperatures.
By encasing the turbocharger bearings in intricate water passages, engine coolant is used to significantly reduce turbocharger bearing temperatures in order to eliminate the coking and lacquering issues that fouled old fashioned turbocharger bearings. Non water cooled turbochargers have no place in a high performance gasoline engine application and should be avoided at all costs.
The graph below shows the turbocharger bearing temperature leading up to engine shutdown and for 20 minutes following shutdown. The temperature is displayed relative to the coking threshold of high quality mineral based oil.
As is clearly evident, the old fashioned non water cooled turbocharger operates above the coking threshold when under high load and experiences a very high temperature increase through heat soak immediately after engine shutdown. The water cooled turbocharger on the other hand remains cooler than the coking threshold at all times and the bearing temperature increase through heat soak immediately after shutdown is reduced drastically.
So with that how can you say that there is no benefit to the Dual Ball Bearing Turbos? Also how can you say there is no need for watercooling along with oil cooling?
Thanx
Once agian this is not considered to be any flame of no sort. This site is made for useful information and i understand what you guys are saying about the kit. But here is some information that i found that i would like to know if you could answer for me.
Why Twin Ball Bearing?
Demands for improving acceleration response and for the reduction of so-called turbo lag are popular amongst performance enthusiasts who wish to take advantage of the enormous gains in power and torque delivered by turbochargers. In addition, bullet-proof reliability is required particularly at high turbocharger boost pressure levels as well as at extreme exhaust gas temperatures commonly found in high performance turbocharged engines.
In order to achieve crisp turbocharger response, a number of advances in turbocharger design have been utilized over the past decade. Primarily through the use of modern metals/ceramics in order to reduce the mass of the rotating assembly. However, significant gains have been made by reducing the friction of the rotating assembly - and this has meant a departure from traditional turbocharger designs.
Traditional turbocharger design employs a conventional plain bearing that runs on a film of oil. This is known as a floating metal bush.
The diagram below shows the turbocharger main shaft supported by floating metal bushes. Oil is fed through the bushes and forms a cushioning layer between the turbocharger shaft and the supporting bush. The shaft relies on a constant supply of fresh, clean oil over a very wide contact area in order to maintain sufficient clearance from the bush itself. A similar approach is used to support the turbocharger main shaft from thrust loads as well.
Whilst floating metal designs have served us well in the past, the frictional forces are relatively high. This results in sluggish turbocharger response and can be somewhat fragile in nature under extreme operating conditions.
Nissan attacked this very issue some 15 years ago on the GTR Skyline by developing a turbocharger bearing system that forms the basis of the true high performance modern turbocharger.
By utilizing robust ball bearings at either side of the turbocharger main shaft, this did away with the floating metal and thrust bushes.
As seen in the diagram below, the turbocharger shaft is supported by two ball bearing assemblies. These again are fed with engine oil, but no longer rely on a thin film of oil over a wide area to support the turbocharger shaft.
The result is an outstanding reduction of frictional torque on the rotating turbocharger assembly in contrast to the old fashioned floating metal bushes. The improvement in turbocharger response, particularly in the lower to mid turbocharger speed range is phenomenal
The graph below shows frictional torque versus turbocharger speed of both old fashioned designs and modern ball bearing turbochargers. Clearly evident are the improvements with ball bearing turbochargers - especially at the low speed range of under 60,000 RPM where friction losses are reduced by 40% to 50%. This translates directly into a quantum leap in turbocharger response.
And best of all for those who wish to push the limits, ball bearing design turbochargers provide significantly higher robustness by better supporting the rotating turbocharger assembly, as well as better spreading thrust loads over old fashioned methods.
Water Cooling
Whilst turbochargers began to be applied to passenger cars in the late 1970's in response to the energy crisis, the first generation passenger car turbochargers were derived directly from commercial diesel engines. Engine oil was used to provide both lubrication and cooling and whilst this was an effective compromise between cost, durability and performance, in high engine performance applications durability suffered through fouling of the turbocharger bearings through high turbine and bearing temperatures.
By encasing the turbocharger bearings in intricate water passages, engine coolant is used to significantly reduce turbocharger bearing temperatures in order to eliminate the coking and lacquering issues that fouled old fashioned turbocharger bearings. Non water cooled turbochargers have no place in a high performance gasoline engine application and should be avoided at all costs.
The graph below shows the turbocharger bearing temperature leading up to engine shutdown and for 20 minutes following shutdown. The temperature is displayed relative to the coking threshold of high quality mineral based oil.
As is clearly evident, the old fashioned non water cooled turbocharger operates above the coking threshold when under high load and experiences a very high temperature increase through heat soak immediately after engine shutdown. The water cooled turbocharger on the other hand remains cooler than the coking threshold at all times and the bearing temperature increase through heat soak immediately after shutdown is reduced drastically.
So with that how can you say that there is no benefit to the Dual Ball Bearing Turbos? Also how can you say there is no need for watercooling along with oil cooling?
Thanx
my lord, we have just had a history lesson on turbo chargers. Did you type that directly from a book? It was very detailed. Anyway great questions. My take on this is that more moving parts = more possibilty of breakdown. There is no doubt it was designed for less friction but really on a dyno graph is there really that big of a difference in spool for a conventional turbo charged vehicle. I understand the water cooling portion of the ball bearing turbo but I thought that turbo timers were used to help cool the motor down while you walk away for the reason to prevent coking. I dont know, I am just a consumer and I buy parts. =)
Evolved Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,118
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From: Riverview, FL
Just a note...the above chart shows the coking threshold for regular dino oil, not a modern synthetic oil such as Mobil 1. Synthetics are fairly immune to coking under all but the most extreme conditions, and pretty much never in a watercooled turbocharger like the Evo stock turbo. A turbo timer or cooldown period is good insurance, especially after a long highway run under boost, but probably 99% of the time it's not really necessary on the Evo.
Just my .02...
Just my .02...
Originally Posted by NOVA EVO
Just a note...the above chart shows the coking threshold for regular dino oil, not a modern synthetic oil such as Mobil 1. Synthetics are fairly immune to coking under all but the most extreme conditions, and pretty much never in a watercooled turbocharger like the Evo stock turbo. A turbo timer or cooldown period is good insurance, especially after a long highway run under boost, but probably 99% of the time it's not really necessary on the Evo.
Just my .02...
Just my .02...
Evolved Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,074
Likes: 0
From: UK
speaking of bearings, anyone know if Garrett (or anyone else) are going to bring out ceramic ball bearing turbos? it would make sence as ceramics can take much higher loads and temps than conventional bearings. there should also be a reduction in friction which will help with spool up. i understand that turbonetics (i think are producing some, but have heard very little about them. anyone got and infomation or knowlage on them?
a bit of an off point, but what about a magnetic bearing? these would be fiction free (think of the spool up). i could see them reuuiering large amounts of current under high loads which may reduce the effectiveness of them. anyone have any thoughts?
any input (apart from flaming) would be cool. thanks Chris.
a bit of an off point, but what about a magnetic bearing? these would be fiction free (think of the spool up). i could see them reuuiering large amounts of current under high loads which may reduce the effectiveness of them. anyone have any thoughts?
any input (apart from flaming) would be cool. thanks Chris.
Evolved Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,118
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From: Riverview, FL
Originally Posted by 2k4EvoVIII
That is true but we are talking about BR and ATP turbos. BR turbos are oiled cooled and no ball bearing while ATP turbos are Water and Oil cooled with dual ball bearing. Also you are correct that a turbo timer will help the cool down process of a oil cooled turbo while you are shuting down but the turbo timer has nothing to do with the heat the turbo produces while it is running. Isnt that the biggest part? Keep the turbo as cool as you can at all times. Of course shutdown is very very important but only half the cake!
Now you've got me torn as well...
Originally Posted by NOVA EVO
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say...watercooled is better, IMHO...the Buschur kits are awesome and can make monster power, but I was wondering about reliability...the BR kits have been around less than a year, right? What is the long-term reliability of their turbos vs. a watercooled BB turbo? Is there THAT much of a difference???
Now you've got me torn as well...
Now you've got me torn as well...
This is my thought though, and I'm speculating here...
The majority of DSM owners are drag racers, so their turbos are driven under normal conditions a lot of the time, and then beaten on and heated up in short bursts.
A lot of Evo owners are track ******, their cars are driven hard for much longer periods of time.
For a turbo that is going to primarily see drag racing action, I think a strictly oil cooled non-BB turbo will be just fine.
For a turbo that is going to see a lot of track use, I would no doubt buy a water cooled turbo, and probably get a BB one to help response as well. Track racers generaly need a wider powerband than drag racers, the BBs can help with this.
- Steve
Evolved Member
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Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Danville/Blackhawk, California
Originally Posted by 2k4EvoVIII
Dave & Al
Once agian this is not considered to be any flame of no sort. This site is made for useful information and i understand what you guys are saying about the kit. But here is some information that i found that i would like to know if you could answer for me.
Why Twin Ball Bearing?
Demands for improving acceleration response and for the reduction of so-called turbo lag are popular amongst performance enthusiasts who wish to take advantage of the enormous gains in power and torque delivered by turbochargers. In addition, bullet-proof reliability is required particularly at high turbocharger boost pressure levels as well as at extreme exhaust gas temperatures commonly found in high performance turbocharged engines.
In order to achieve crisp turbocharger response, a number of advances in turbocharger design have been utilized over the past decade. Primarily through the use of modern metals/ceramics in order to reduce the mass of the rotating assembly. However, significant gains have been made by reducing the friction of the rotating assembly - and this has meant a departure from traditional turbocharger designs.
Traditional turbocharger design employs a conventional plain bearing that runs on a film of oil. This is known as a floating metal bush.
The diagram below shows the turbocharger main shaft supported by floating metal bushes. Oil is fed through the bushes and forms a cushioning layer between the turbocharger shaft and the supporting bush. The shaft relies on a constant supply of fresh, clean oil over a very wide contact area in order to maintain sufficient clearance from the bush itself. A similar approach is used to support the turbocharger main shaft from thrust loads as well.
Whilst floating metal designs have served us well in the past, the frictional forces are relatively high. This results in sluggish turbocharger response and can be somewhat fragile in nature under extreme operating conditions.
Nissan attacked this very issue some 15 years ago on the GTR Skyline by developing a turbocharger bearing system that forms the basis of the true high performance modern turbocharger.
By utilizing robust ball bearings at either side of the turbocharger main shaft, this did away with the floating metal and thrust bushes.
As seen in the diagram below, the turbocharger shaft is supported by two ball bearing assemblies. These again are fed with engine oil, but no longer rely on a thin film of oil over a wide area to support the turbocharger shaft.
The result is an outstanding reduction of frictional torque on the rotating turbocharger assembly in contrast to the old fashioned floating metal bushes. The improvement in turbocharger response, particularly in the lower to mid turbocharger speed range is phenomenal
The graph below shows frictional torque versus turbocharger speed of both old fashioned designs and modern ball bearing turbochargers. Clearly evident are the improvements with ball bearing turbochargers - especially at the low speed range of under 60,000 RPM where friction losses are reduced by 40% to 50%. This translates directly into a quantum leap in turbocharger response.
And best of all for those who wish to push the limits, ball bearing design turbochargers provide significantly higher robustness by better supporting the rotating turbocharger assembly, as well as better spreading thrust loads over old fashioned methods.
Water Cooling
Whilst turbochargers began to be applied to passenger cars in the late 1970's in response to the energy crisis, the first generation passenger car turbochargers were derived directly from commercial diesel engines. Engine oil was used to provide both lubrication and cooling and whilst this was an effective compromise between cost, durability and performance, in high engine performance applications durability suffered through fouling of the turbocharger bearings through high turbine and bearing temperatures.
By encasing the turbocharger bearings in intricate water passages, engine coolant is used to significantly reduce turbocharger bearing temperatures in order to eliminate the coking and lacquering issues that fouled old fashioned turbocharger bearings. Non water cooled turbochargers have no place in a high performance gasoline engine application and should be avoided at all costs.
The graph below shows the turbocharger bearing temperature leading up to engine shutdown and for 20 minutes following shutdown. The temperature is displayed relative to the coking threshold of high quality mineral based oil.
As is clearly evident, the old fashioned non water cooled turbocharger operates above the coking threshold when under high load and experiences a very high temperature increase through heat soak immediately after engine shutdown. The water cooled turbocharger on the other hand remains cooler than the coking threshold at all times and the bearing temperature increase through heat soak immediately after shutdown is reduced drastically.
So with that how can you say that there is no benefit to the Dual Ball Bearing Turbos? Also how can you say there is no need for watercooling along with oil cooling?
Thanx
Once agian this is not considered to be any flame of no sort. This site is made for useful information and i understand what you guys are saying about the kit. But here is some information that i found that i would like to know if you could answer for me.
Why Twin Ball Bearing?
Demands for improving acceleration response and for the reduction of so-called turbo lag are popular amongst performance enthusiasts who wish to take advantage of the enormous gains in power and torque delivered by turbochargers. In addition, bullet-proof reliability is required particularly at high turbocharger boost pressure levels as well as at extreme exhaust gas temperatures commonly found in high performance turbocharged engines.
In order to achieve crisp turbocharger response, a number of advances in turbocharger design have been utilized over the past decade. Primarily through the use of modern metals/ceramics in order to reduce the mass of the rotating assembly. However, significant gains have been made by reducing the friction of the rotating assembly - and this has meant a departure from traditional turbocharger designs.
Traditional turbocharger design employs a conventional plain bearing that runs on a film of oil. This is known as a floating metal bush.
The diagram below shows the turbocharger main shaft supported by floating metal bushes. Oil is fed through the bushes and forms a cushioning layer between the turbocharger shaft and the supporting bush. The shaft relies on a constant supply of fresh, clean oil over a very wide contact area in order to maintain sufficient clearance from the bush itself. A similar approach is used to support the turbocharger main shaft from thrust loads as well.
Whilst floating metal designs have served us well in the past, the frictional forces are relatively high. This results in sluggish turbocharger response and can be somewhat fragile in nature under extreme operating conditions.
Nissan attacked this very issue some 15 years ago on the GTR Skyline by developing a turbocharger bearing system that forms the basis of the true high performance modern turbocharger.
By utilizing robust ball bearings at either side of the turbocharger main shaft, this did away with the floating metal and thrust bushes.
As seen in the diagram below, the turbocharger shaft is supported by two ball bearing assemblies. These again are fed with engine oil, but no longer rely on a thin film of oil over a wide area to support the turbocharger shaft.
The result is an outstanding reduction of frictional torque on the rotating turbocharger assembly in contrast to the old fashioned floating metal bushes. The improvement in turbocharger response, particularly in the lower to mid turbocharger speed range is phenomenal
The graph below shows frictional torque versus turbocharger speed of both old fashioned designs and modern ball bearing turbochargers. Clearly evident are the improvements with ball bearing turbochargers - especially at the low speed range of under 60,000 RPM where friction losses are reduced by 40% to 50%. This translates directly into a quantum leap in turbocharger response.
And best of all for those who wish to push the limits, ball bearing design turbochargers provide significantly higher robustness by better supporting the rotating turbocharger assembly, as well as better spreading thrust loads over old fashioned methods.
Water Cooling
Whilst turbochargers began to be applied to passenger cars in the late 1970's in response to the energy crisis, the first generation passenger car turbochargers were derived directly from commercial diesel engines. Engine oil was used to provide both lubrication and cooling and whilst this was an effective compromise between cost, durability and performance, in high engine performance applications durability suffered through fouling of the turbocharger bearings through high turbine and bearing temperatures.
By encasing the turbocharger bearings in intricate water passages, engine coolant is used to significantly reduce turbocharger bearing temperatures in order to eliminate the coking and lacquering issues that fouled old fashioned turbocharger bearings. Non water cooled turbochargers have no place in a high performance gasoline engine application and should be avoided at all costs.
The graph below shows the turbocharger bearing temperature leading up to engine shutdown and for 20 minutes following shutdown. The temperature is displayed relative to the coking threshold of high quality mineral based oil.
As is clearly evident, the old fashioned non water cooled turbocharger operates above the coking threshold when under high load and experiences a very high temperature increase through heat soak immediately after engine shutdown. The water cooled turbocharger on the other hand remains cooler than the coking threshold at all times and the bearing temperature increase through heat soak immediately after shutdown is reduced drastically.
So with that how can you say that there is no benefit to the Dual Ball Bearing Turbos? Also how can you say there is no need for watercooling along with oil cooling?
Thanx
And with regards to the Garret GT-series turbochargers, there has also been significant advances in compressor and turbine wheel aero. This also improves surge resistance, efficiency and response time. The only thing reasonably convention with the GT-series turbos are the housings which are T-family derivatives.
My 2c,
shiv
Originally Posted by TampaTurbo
my lord, we have just had a history lesson on turbo chargers. Did you type that directly from a book?