E10 cocktail fuel - ???
Jun 25, 2008, 01:32 PM
#1
E10 cocktail fuel - ???
My ethanol interest was piqued by this thread, but I thought it raised more questions than it answered.
Further ‘research’ led me to this thread over in the How To section:
Common ways to boost your octane using off the shelf products
Particularly this formula:
Formula #4 - Ethanol
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.7 Octane (Ethanol)
So, is this bogus, or can I make a poor-man's 93 by mixing an E10 cocktail fuel of E85 and 91 octane?
I figured a full tank is 14 gals. So, 10% ethanol would need to be 1.41 gal. However, I'm mixing in E85 which is only 85% ethanol. So, I would actually need 1.65 gal of E85 to equal 10% ethanol in 14 gals. Is my math correct?
I realize that some parts of the country – CA for example – already have 10% ethanol in all the pump gases. These E10 pump blends already take into account the ethanol benefits in calculating the octane rating. I’m not talking about using one of these types of fuels. I’m talking about using genuine 91 octane gasoline and mixing in sufficient E85 to make the ethanol content of the fuel 10%.
Is this a bad idea? Am I simply diluting the already poor quality 91 octane gas? Am I nuts? Will my EVO just be a big bag of bolts come next week?
Well, I did the E10 mix this past weekend and the butt dyno says 50hp – no, just kidding. It did FEEL stronger to me, but my butt dyno is old, tired and has a lot of miles. I’m asking for one of you young Turks who has all the right stuff – wideband, DLL, etc. to actually test this out and report back to this thread.
Any takers?
Further ‘research’ led me to this thread over in the How To section:
Common ways to boost your octane using off the shelf products
Particularly this formula:
Formula #4 - Ethanol
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...........94.7 Octane (Ethanol)
So, is this bogus, or can I make a poor-man's 93 by mixing an E10 cocktail fuel of E85 and 91 octane?
I figured a full tank is 14 gals. So, 10% ethanol would need to be 1.41 gal. However, I'm mixing in E85 which is only 85% ethanol. So, I would actually need 1.65 gal of E85 to equal 10% ethanol in 14 gals. Is my math correct?
I realize that some parts of the country – CA for example – already have 10% ethanol in all the pump gases. These E10 pump blends already take into account the ethanol benefits in calculating the octane rating. I’m not talking about using one of these types of fuels. I’m talking about using genuine 91 octane gasoline and mixing in sufficient E85 to make the ethanol content of the fuel 10%.
Is this a bad idea? Am I simply diluting the already poor quality 91 octane gas? Am I nuts? Will my EVO just be a big bag of bolts come next week?
Well, I did the E10 mix this past weekend and the butt dyno says 50hp – no, just kidding. It did FEEL stronger to me, but my butt dyno is old, tired and has a lot of miles. I’m asking for one of you young Turks who has all the right stuff – wideband, DLL, etc. to actually test this out and report back to this thread.
Any takers?
Last edited by Jim in Tucson; Jun 25, 2008 at 03:14 PM.
Jun 26, 2008, 10:01 AM
#4
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I didn't read any of the links you posted, but every gas station I fill up at has a note saying "this fuel contains upto 10% ethanol".
Considering that and also that E85 is 85% ethanol, I think standard premium fuel would be considered upto "E10"? So if you added that 1.65 gallons of E85 I think, if I am correct about this, you would have 2.8 gallons of eth and 11.2 gallons of gas leaving you with E20?
One last thing you have to think of is the tuning factor, since all tuning is is thermal managment and the ethanol burns hotter you need additional fuel in ethanol for cooling (richer AFR), if you already have a very conservative tune you will probably fair alright, but its just another angle that needs to be considered.
I have done no real research on E85 or ethanol because it is available no where in my area, so take my word for what its worth.
P.S. Your math is correct.
Okay Okay, I just re-read the thread, rendering my first post useless. I would do your mix to get your "poor mans" 93 octane. Gas stations all across the country are using it and I would in your case as long as you are ready for the PITA of mixing the fuel the hard way.
Considering that and also that E85 is 85% ethanol, I think standard premium fuel would be considered upto "E10"? So if you added that 1.65 gallons of E85 I think, if I am correct about this, you would have 2.8 gallons of eth and 11.2 gallons of gas leaving you with E20?
One last thing you have to think of is the tuning factor, since all tuning is is thermal managment and the ethanol burns hotter you need additional fuel in ethanol for cooling (richer AFR), if you already have a very conservative tune you will probably fair alright, but its just another angle that needs to be considered.
I have done no real research on E85 or ethanol because it is available no where in my area, so take my word for what its worth.
P.S. Your math is correct.
Okay Okay, I just re-read the thread, rendering my first post useless. I would do your mix to get your "poor mans" 93 octane. Gas stations all across the country are using it and I would in your case as long as you are ready for the PITA of mixing the fuel the hard way.
Last edited by Boltz.; Jun 26, 2008 at 10:03 AM.
Jun 26, 2008, 10:00 PM
#5
Thanks for the reply, Boltz. I was beginning to think my thread was poorly written or people just don't like me. I'm such a sensitive guy.
According to this thread, the presumption is that E85 is ethanol blended with 87 octane.
So, to expand on my initial post, a 14 gal tank of fuel combining 1.65 gal of E85 and 91 octane, would actually contain:
1.41 gal of ethanol - 10%
0.24 gal of 87 octane - 2%
12.35 gal of 91 octane - 88%
----------------
added together equals what?
I would still like someone besides me to test this out and set us straight with some facts, or at least a wideband reading and maybe a DLL dyno.
According to this thread, the presumption is that E85 is ethanol blended with 87 octane.
So, to expand on my initial post, a 14 gal tank of fuel combining 1.65 gal of E85 and 91 octane, would actually contain:
1.41 gal of ethanol - 10%
0.24 gal of 87 octane - 2%
12.35 gal of 91 octane - 88%
----------------
added together equals what?
I would still like someone besides me to test this out and set us straight with some facts, or at least a wideband reading and maybe a DLL dyno.
Jun 26, 2008, 11:02 PM
#6
To simply answer your question, without getting into the whole thing where most gas that is sold already contains 10% ethanol, and assuming you will be using non-oxygenated 91 (good luck finding it):
In order to make E10 blend you need:
10% ethanol which if you use E85 you actually need 10/85%=11.76 or roughly 12% E85 and 88% 91 gasoline.
So you will presumably get 12% of 105 octane and 88% of 91 octane, which blended would equal 92.7 octane.
So if your tank is 14 gal then you need 1.7 gal of E85 and 12.3 of 91
It will run a bit leaner than what you're tuned for and you will get worse mileage. I don't think this is something even remotely beneficial considering all the hassle of 2 pumps and measuring...
In order to make E10 blend you need:
10% ethanol which if you use E85 you actually need 10/85%=11.76 or roughly 12% E85 and 88% 91 gasoline.
So you will presumably get 12% of 105 octane and 88% of 91 octane, which blended would equal 92.7 octane.
So if your tank is 14 gal then you need 1.7 gal of E85 and 12.3 of 91
It will run a bit leaner than what you're tuned for and you will get worse mileage. I don't think this is something even remotely beneficial considering all the hassle of 2 pumps and measuring...
Jun 26, 2008, 11:09 PM
#7
Arizona already uses ethanol to boost the oxygen content in wintertime gasoline. Winter fuels are 10 percent ethanol by volume. And ethanol demand has increased in summer as well, since the state banned the use of MTBE. The Phoenix metropolitan area, including Maricopa County and parts of Pinal and Yavapai Counties, are required to use special gasoline blends during the winter and summer to meet federal air quality standards. Tucson also uses a special blend during the winter months. The rest of Arizona, outside the metropolitan Tucson and Phoenix areas, uses conventional gasoline year round.
All gasoline that is delivered to retail stations in Maricopa County must be blended with ethanol (10 percent by volume) to help reduce carbon monoxide emissions for improved air quality. The blending of ethanol into gasoline occurs at the terminal rather than at the refinery because ethanol cannot be delivered though pipelines. Ethanol is not delivered through pipelines because it attracts and absorbs water that may be present as condensation in the pipeline and thereby contaminate the gasoline. Ethanol is also a corrosive and continued transport of ethanol within pipelines could compromise a pipeline’s physical integrity.
All gasoline that is delivered to retail stations in Maricopa County must be blended with ethanol (10 percent by volume) to help reduce carbon monoxide emissions for improved air quality. The blending of ethanol into gasoline occurs at the terminal rather than at the refinery because ethanol cannot be delivered though pipelines. Ethanol is not delivered through pipelines because it attracts and absorbs water that may be present as condensation in the pipeline and thereby contaminate the gasoline. Ethanol is also a corrosive and continued transport of ethanol within pipelines could compromise a pipeline’s physical integrity.
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Jun 27, 2008, 06:51 PM
#9
This from the AZ fuel regulatory:
<quote>
What kind of gasoline do we use in Arizona?
Residents of Phoenix use Clean Burning Fuel (CBG) year-round. CBG is one of the most environmentally sound gasoline blends consumed anywhere in the world. It has been reformulated to reduce the amount of certain pollutants, and has been modified to enhance certain performance characteristics.
Residents of Tucson use a blend of conventional gasoline and ethanol from October through March. This blended fuel promotes more complete combustion of gasoline, which reduces carbon monoxide and volatile organic chemicals. In addition, ethanol is derived from corn, a renewable resource, and it reduces our reliance on fossil fuels.
State law mandates that fuel sold in the Tucson area contain a 5.1 percent blend of ethanol, by volume, between Oct 1 and March 31, while Phoenix-area fuel must include a 10 percent blend of ethanol, by volume, between Nov. 1 and March 31.
Residents in the rest of Arizona use conventional gasoline.
</quote>
So, apparently the fuel I mixed with E85 was in fact 91 octane and not E10.
My question remains, has anyone, besides me, actually tested this out?
<quote>
What kind of gasoline do we use in Arizona?
Residents of Phoenix use Clean Burning Fuel (CBG) year-round. CBG is one of the most environmentally sound gasoline blends consumed anywhere in the world. It has been reformulated to reduce the amount of certain pollutants, and has been modified to enhance certain performance characteristics.
Residents of Tucson use a blend of conventional gasoline and ethanol from October through March. This blended fuel promotes more complete combustion of gasoline, which reduces carbon monoxide and volatile organic chemicals. In addition, ethanol is derived from corn, a renewable resource, and it reduces our reliance on fossil fuels.
State law mandates that fuel sold in the Tucson area contain a 5.1 percent blend of ethanol, by volume, between Oct 1 and March 31, while Phoenix-area fuel must include a 10 percent blend of ethanol, by volume, between Nov. 1 and March 31.
Residents in the rest of Arizona use conventional gasoline.
</quote>
So, apparently the fuel I mixed with E85 was in fact 91 octane and not E10.
My question remains, has anyone, besides me, actually tested this out?
Jul 2, 2008, 09:14 AM
#10
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To simply answer your question, without getting into the whole thing where most gas that is sold already contains 10% ethanol, and assuming you will be using non-oxygenated 91 (good luck finding it):
In order to make E10 blend you need:
10% ethanol which if you use E85 you actually need 10/85%=11.76 or roughly 12% E85 and 88% 91 gasoline.
So you will presumably get 12% of 105 octane and 88% of 91 octane, which blended would equal 92.7 octane.
So if your tank is 14 gal then you need 1.7 gal of E85 and 12.3 of 91
It will run a bit leaner than what you're tuned for and you will get worse mileage. I don't think this is something even remotely beneficial considering all the hassle of 2 pumps and measuring...
In order to make E10 blend you need:
10% ethanol which if you use E85 you actually need 10/85%=11.76 or roughly 12% E85 and 88% 91 gasoline.
So you will presumably get 12% of 105 octane and 88% of 91 octane, which blended would equal 92.7 octane.
So if your tank is 14 gal then you need 1.7 gal of E85 and 12.3 of 91
It will run a bit leaner than what you're tuned for and you will get worse mileage. I don't think this is something even remotely beneficial considering all the hassle of 2 pumps and measuring...
Jul 2, 2008, 09:21 AM
#11
A few months ago, all of my area shell gas stations started putting up stickers at the pump stating that it will contain up to 10% ethanol by volume. i didn't give it that much thought at first, but now at WOT my a/f are higher than it was before. i used to get solid 11.6-11.8 a/f. now at WOT it is around 12.2-12.6. so is this normal for E10?
I can't say what is normal as I've never bought E10 from the pump. Or, if I did I was unaware. Of course, my wife says I'm usually unaware, but that is another matter.
Jul 2, 2008, 09:43 AM
#12
A few months ago, all of my area shell gas stations started putting up stickers at the pump stating that it will contain up to 10% ethanol by volume. i didn't give it that much thought at first, but now at WOT my a/f are higher than it was before. i used to get solid 11.6-11.8 a/f. now at WOT it is around 12.2-12.6. so is this normal for E10?
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