E-85 and EcuFlash
yes, low torque, what did you expect for a 250cc engine? its geared properly though. cause torque at the crank is meaningless without proper gearing. bonus, the car only weighs 450 pounds 
oh, and unless you're idling you never see 7500 rpm. you don't see full boost until 9000 rpm, and sense it revs to 20, thats a very useable power range. if it weren't restricted it would make more i'm sure
oh, and unless you're idling you never see 7500 rpm. you don't see full boost until 9000 rpm, and sense it revs to 20, thats a very useable power range. if it weren't restricted it would make more i'm sure
Last edited by KevinD; Nov 28, 2006 at 12:48 PM.
Originally Posted by KevinD
yes, low torque, what did you expect for a 250cc engine? its geared properly though. cause torque at the crank is meaningless without proper gearing. bonus, the car only weighs 450 pounds
oh, and unless you're idling you never see 7500 rpm. you don't see full boost until 9000 rpm, and sense it revs to 20, thats a very useable power range. if it weren't restricted it would make more i'm sure
oh, and unless you're idling you never see 7500 rpm. you don't see full boost until 9000 rpm, and sense it revs to 20, thats a very useable power range. if it weren't restricted it would make more i'm sure
Eric
Originally Posted by PVD04
Every source I have looked at lists the same information. According to every source, 0.7143 is richer than the max power mixture but will provide within 1% of max power and 0.8673 is leaner than the max power mixture but will also provide within 1% of max power. I certainly do not feel comfortable making it leaner just because you say 0.8673 is very rich on E-85.
-Paul
-Paul
Originally Posted by JohnBradley
This is only accurate tuning if the O2 sensor voltage is calibrated for Alcohol based fuels. It is reading variance from stoich being 1.0v. Therefore you tune it the same way that you would tune a gas motor (more or less) unless you have a recal O2. Honestly alcohol is definitely the one time you really dont want to tune definitively by the narrowband.
And the only calibration required is the free-air calibration so it knows what to compare it against...
That might be Jack, but I know that when analysing any fuel with a wideband other than gasoline you still tune as if its gasoline. I may have incorrectly figured that lambda volatge was just less defined version of what 5v does/is. There was a 9 page thread on a DSM site I frequent all about tuning for E85. You would find for instance best power on E85 with a gas wideband is 12:1.
Consider this courtesy of GTluke:
quoted from turbomustangs.
Consider this courtesy of GTluke:
quoted from turbomustangs.
Turbomustangs.com along with Steve Cole Enterprises Inc (username: Karl Hungus) has completed some preliminary testing with the environmentally friendly, cheaper than 91 Octane, E85 fuel blend.
First off what is E85? E85, is a motor fuel blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline to be used in flex-fuel vehicles. Ethanol is alcohol used in transportation fuels. It is a high-octane, liquid fuel, produced by the fermentation of plant sugars. In
the United States, ethanol is typically produced from corn and other grain products, although in the future it may be economically produced from other biomass resources.
Benefits:
It has a motor octane rating of 104-108, it is also quite cold to the touch. It is currently about 1.99 per gallon, while 91 Octane is approximately 3.30 a gallon. E85 is cleaner burning, emitting a lot less greenhouse gasses. It is also a renewable resource. To top it off it is made 100% within the confines of the USA.
Cons:
It takes more of this fuel to create the same energy as regular gasoline. Therefore your car will use more fuel and you will see a decrease of approximately 10-15% in fuel economy. To make big horsepower you will need more fuel pump and more injector. Many people state that the fuel is corrosive and it could have adverse effects on aluminum fuel rails, injector o-rings and fuel lines. But so far in 9 months of testing we have seen no such side effects.
Test Car
1995 Mustang GT street car, 331 cubic inch, custom twin turbo system with twin T70 p-trims w/ .58 AR, T56 tranny, solid roller: 242/236, .600 lift.
Fuel System: 3, 255lph Walbro in line fuel pumps, 160# injectors.
No alky, no nitrous, no ice on the intake, etc.
The first thing we did was add 40% fuel to the fuel map under WOT. We also added about 20% fuel in part throttle areas. We were tuning using a regular gasoline wideband air fuel ratio of 14:1 at part throttle. On the dyno the car made the best and cleanest power at 12:1.
At 6 psi of boost and 35 degrees total timing the car made 575rwhp from 6000rpm until 7500rpm. The power never fell off. We tried less timing but the car didn’t respond well and the power curve was sloppier. At 13psi and about 29 degrees of timing we made 872rwhp. At 20psi and ~24 degrees of timing we made 989rwhp.
At 30 psi and 20 degrees of timing we ended up with 1066rwhp. The fuel injectors were at 75% duty cycle at this power level. Whereas with gasoline they were at about 55%. The fuel pressure was also slightly falling off at the top. The lack of a large power increase from 20-30psi is due to the tiny exhaust housings on this street car.
In total we made 16 dyno pulls and we never heard any detonation, but we did hit fuel cut a few times during testing. The next day the spark plugs were pulled and there may have been slight detonation in 2 of the cylinders because the porcelain was speckled. However the car still runs fine. This is definitely a very impressive fuel.
I also want to point out how impressed I am with this solid roller setup. Sure it is slightly noisier than my tiny hydro cam. But you can’t argue with that sick power curve. At all boost levels the car makes peak power at 6000rpm and holds it solid until 7500rpm, I am sure it would pull up to 8000rpm no problem. Steve has also tried a larger hydraulic cam to get the same results but it just didn’t work. The cam was a comp extreme energy hyd roller: 248 @ .050 on int and exh, 114 lsa. The car also had larger 74mm turbos at the time but the power would peak at 6500rpm and drop like a rock, even with expensive valve springs. With the new small solid roller cam the car even lugs along at 1500rpm no problem and idles fine at 900rpm.
First off what is E85? E85, is a motor fuel blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline to be used in flex-fuel vehicles. Ethanol is alcohol used in transportation fuels. It is a high-octane, liquid fuel, produced by the fermentation of plant sugars. In
the United States, ethanol is typically produced from corn and other grain products, although in the future it may be economically produced from other biomass resources.
Benefits:
It has a motor octane rating of 104-108, it is also quite cold to the touch. It is currently about 1.99 per gallon, while 91 Octane is approximately 3.30 a gallon. E85 is cleaner burning, emitting a lot less greenhouse gasses. It is also a renewable resource. To top it off it is made 100% within the confines of the USA.
Cons:
It takes more of this fuel to create the same energy as regular gasoline. Therefore your car will use more fuel and you will see a decrease of approximately 10-15% in fuel economy. To make big horsepower you will need more fuel pump and more injector. Many people state that the fuel is corrosive and it could have adverse effects on aluminum fuel rails, injector o-rings and fuel lines. But so far in 9 months of testing we have seen no such side effects.
Test Car
1995 Mustang GT street car, 331 cubic inch, custom twin turbo system with twin T70 p-trims w/ .58 AR, T56 tranny, solid roller: 242/236, .600 lift.
Fuel System: 3, 255lph Walbro in line fuel pumps, 160# injectors.
No alky, no nitrous, no ice on the intake, etc.
The first thing we did was add 40% fuel to the fuel map under WOT. We also added about 20% fuel in part throttle areas. We were tuning using a regular gasoline wideband air fuel ratio of 14:1 at part throttle. On the dyno the car made the best and cleanest power at 12:1.
At 6 psi of boost and 35 degrees total timing the car made 575rwhp from 6000rpm until 7500rpm. The power never fell off. We tried less timing but the car didn’t respond well and the power curve was sloppier. At 13psi and about 29 degrees of timing we made 872rwhp. At 20psi and ~24 degrees of timing we made 989rwhp.
At 30 psi and 20 degrees of timing we ended up with 1066rwhp. The fuel injectors were at 75% duty cycle at this power level. Whereas with gasoline they were at about 55%. The fuel pressure was also slightly falling off at the top. The lack of a large power increase from 20-30psi is due to the tiny exhaust housings on this street car.
In total we made 16 dyno pulls and we never heard any detonation, but we did hit fuel cut a few times during testing. The next day the spark plugs were pulled and there may have been slight detonation in 2 of the cylinders because the porcelain was speckled. However the car still runs fine. This is definitely a very impressive fuel.
I also want to point out how impressed I am with this solid roller setup. Sure it is slightly noisier than my tiny hydro cam. But you can’t argue with that sick power curve. At all boost levels the car makes peak power at 6000rpm and holds it solid until 7500rpm, I am sure it would pull up to 8000rpm no problem. Steve has also tried a larger hydraulic cam to get the same results but it just didn’t work. The cam was a comp extreme energy hyd roller: 248 @ .050 on int and exh, 114 lsa. The car also had larger 74mm turbos at the time but the power would peak at 6500rpm and drop like a rock, even with expensive valve springs. With the new small solid roller cam the car even lugs along at 1500rpm no problem and idles fine at 900rpm.
Last edited by JohnBradley; Nov 28, 2006 at 10:56 PM.
That sounds about right.. If you had a wideband that read stoich as 14.7 (you didn't have the option of using lambda) then the mathematical calculation is for Gasoline..
So, on an E85 equipped car, running the same exact Wideband setup you normally run, cruise and idle would still read 14.7 (because this is the output of the gage) and power tuning would be around 12.0 or so, similar to how you would tune for gasoline.
I already figured this was the case as I run a turboXS Tuner Pro, the box is configured for Lambda in the glovebox, but the 5v output hooked up to a PLX Gage, and the ECU+, both of which are gasoline calibrated and therefore read 14.7 as stoich regardless of what stoich is (I have seen this experimenting with alternative fuels)
It makes for an interesting thought on how you would do meth injection tuning..
But anyway, I realized later that your comments were right along my thoughts, and my reply was really only a clarification.
So, on an E85 equipped car, running the same exact Wideband setup you normally run, cruise and idle would still read 14.7 (because this is the output of the gage) and power tuning would be around 12.0 or so, similar to how you would tune for gasoline.
I already figured this was the case as I run a turboXS Tuner Pro, the box is configured for Lambda in the glovebox, but the 5v output hooked up to a PLX Gage, and the ECU+, both of which are gasoline calibrated and therefore read 14.7 as stoich regardless of what stoich is (I have seen this experimenting with alternative fuels)
It makes for an interesting thought on how you would do meth injection tuning..
But anyway, I realized later that your comments were right along my thoughts, and my reply was really only a clarification.
Originally Posted by KevinD
well having already built and tuned an e-85 race car, we ran .8-.85 very effectively. any richer then that was down on power, and ran very poorly. go ahead and try running .71 lambda, but you are seriously missing out on the potential the fuel has. FYI, we had a 11.5:1 compression ratio running 10-14 psi boost with no intercooler on e-85 at .8-.85 lambda... if thats not pushing the limits then tell me what is oh and the car made 73hp from 250cc of displacement. it was a 4 cylinder 16 valve engine too. revved to 20k rpm.
oh and the car made 73hp from 250cc of displacement. it was a 4 cylinder 16 valve engine too. revved to 20k rpm.d
Originally Posted by MalibuJack
That sounds about right.. If you had a wideband that read stoich as 14.7 (you didn't have the option of using lambda) then the mathematical calculation is for Gasoline..
So, on an E85 equipped car, running the same exact Wideband setup you normally run, cruise and idle would still read 14.7 (because this is the output of the gage) and power tuning would be around 12.0 or so, similar to how you would tune for gasoline.
I already figured this was the case as I run a turboXS Tuner Pro, the box is configured for Lambda in the glovebox, but the 5v output hooked up to a PLX Gage, and the ECU+, both of which are gasoline calibrated and therefore read 14.7 as stoich regardless of what stoich is (I have seen this experimenting with alternative fuels)
It makes for an interesting thought on how you would do meth injection tuning..
But anyway, I realized later that your comments were right along my thoughts, and my reply was really only a clarification.
So, on an E85 equipped car, running the same exact Wideband setup you normally run, cruise and idle would still read 14.7 (because this is the output of the gage) and power tuning would be around 12.0 or so, similar to how you would tune for gasoline.
I already figured this was the case as I run a turboXS Tuner Pro, the box is configured for Lambda in the glovebox, but the 5v output hooked up to a PLX Gage, and the ECU+, both of which are gasoline calibrated and therefore read 14.7 as stoich regardless of what stoich is (I have seen this experimenting with alternative fuels)
It makes for an interesting thought on how you would do meth injection tuning..
But anyway, I realized later that your comments were right along my thoughts, and my reply was really only a clarification.
As for my 1 day update: So far the car is running great. It actually starts up a bit better and idles a little smoother. Nothing significant, but I notice a difference. I turned the boost up a bit this morning: 25 psi peak tapering to ~22 psi at 7000 RPM and did not have any knock. According to the data log lab dyno I am up around 30 ft-lbs of torque through the midrange and ~10 ft-lbs at the top end. I have not made any timing adjustments yet, so there is probably a bit more power in it. Unfortunately I'm supposed to get 3-5 inches of snow tonight, so WOT pulls on the way home from work probably won't happen.
-Paul
Originally Posted by MalibuJack
That sounds about right.. If you had a wideband that read stoich as 14.7 (you didn't have the option of using lambda) then the mathematical calculation is for Gasoline..
So, on an E85 equipped car, running the same exact Wideband setup you normally run, cruise and idle would still read 14.7 (because this is the output of the gage) and power tuning would be around 12.0 or so, similar to how you would tune for gasoline.
I already figured this was the case as I run a turboXS Tuner Pro, the box is configured for Lambda in the glovebox, but the 5v output hooked up to a PLX Gage, and the ECU+, both of which are gasoline calibrated and therefore read 14.7 as stoich regardless of what stoich is (I have seen this experimenting with alternative fuels)
It makes for an interesting thought on how you would do meth injection tuning..
But anyway, I realized later that your comments were right along my thoughts, and my reply was really only a clarification.
So, on an E85 equipped car, running the same exact Wideband setup you normally run, cruise and idle would still read 14.7 (because this is the output of the gage) and power tuning would be around 12.0 or so, similar to how you would tune for gasoline.
I already figured this was the case as I run a turboXS Tuner Pro, the box is configured for Lambda in the glovebox, but the 5v output hooked up to a PLX Gage, and the ECU+, both of which are gasoline calibrated and therefore read 14.7 as stoich regardless of what stoich is (I have seen this experimenting with alternative fuels)
It makes for an interesting thought on how you would do meth injection tuning..
But anyway, I realized later that your comments were right along my thoughts, and my reply was really only a clarification.
I am not sure, but I think you can also do this with the zetronix WB as well.
As far as I know, many of the better widebands are capable of this..
The best way to tune is to use lambda, therefore AFR value is meaningless.. Lambda for some reason is a hard concept for people to follow.. but its actually pretty easy once its clearly explained.
The best way to tune is to use lambda, therefore AFR value is meaningless.. Lambda for some reason is a hard concept for people to follow.. but its actually pretty easy once its clearly explained.
Originally Posted by MalibuJack
The best way to tune is to use lambda, therefore AFR value is meaningless.. Lambda for some reason is a hard concept for people to follow.. but its actually pretty easy once its clearly explained.
agreed.
Here's an interesting thing about E85 though..
Early on, cold climates had issues with ethanol based fuels (back in the day ethanol was used in cars quite frequently, I think it was called Ethyl at the pumps according to what I've read over the years) However, ethanol had problems with cold starting in really cold environments, you needed fuel that would atomize and vaporize easily, gasoline does this easier than ethanol in cold climates.
The premise of E85 is that the 15% gasoline is supposed to allow this in cold climates and allow the car to start and run without needing the gasoline primer system documented in early ethanol conversion attempts in the 60's and 70's..
I want to see some of these cars in cold climates and running E85 and how good their cold start is..
There is an easy solution, a heater/circulator used to maintain the coolant temps above freezing used in some industrial vehicles in very cold climates.. long ago I remember most cars that were produced for sale in canada had a block heater option...
Early on, cold climates had issues with ethanol based fuels (back in the day ethanol was used in cars quite frequently, I think it was called Ethyl at the pumps according to what I've read over the years) However, ethanol had problems with cold starting in really cold environments, you needed fuel that would atomize and vaporize easily, gasoline does this easier than ethanol in cold climates.
The premise of E85 is that the 15% gasoline is supposed to allow this in cold climates and allow the car to start and run without needing the gasoline primer system documented in early ethanol conversion attempts in the 60's and 70's..
I want to see some of these cars in cold climates and running E85 and how good their cold start is..
There is an easy solution, a heater/circulator used to maintain the coolant temps above freezing used in some industrial vehicles in very cold climates.. long ago I remember most cars that were produced for sale in canada had a block heater option...
Originally Posted by KevinD
yup.
I go down the Dr Bobs autocross weekends in July. I work with the drivers training program here at UNM.
Don't you guys actually make LESS power on E85 because you have to run the smaller restrictor?
d