how-to: ECU-based direct boost control
Jun 5, 2009, 02:30 PM
#706
Question on scaling this for a 5 bar.
The x/(5.18 *2) how or what are these values?
Is the 5.18 the voltage maximum for the system? I need to reverse these values to come to an understanding what formula will work for a 5 bar setup which doesn't' use the entire voltage range.
The x/(5.18 *2) how or what are these values?
Is the 5.18 the voltage maximum for the system? I need to reverse these values to come to an understanding what formula will work for a 5 bar setup which doesn't' use the entire voltage range.
Jun 5, 2009, 02:45 PM
#707
Getting there.....
I completed some logs today with BEC zeroed, WGDCs set to 50s. Things are much clearer to me now, but some of the data isn't as I expected based on my reading. And yes I reread this entire thread last night, and all the gear dependent boost control threads as well (that will hopefully be next).
1 - You will notice crazy RPM sticking or revving after I am off throttle. Now I haven't had that before, but maybe a just a bit. I know logically it is not impacted by these settings. The battery did die last night because in all my reading I forgot I left the keys in the car. Don't know if the ECU has some mechanism to keep Revs higher when voltage is deemed too low. I include the comment here in case its indicative of any other mistake I may have made with tables or scalings and all that. I have attached a zip of 3 xcel files.
2 - Boost is going to 20-21 peak, 3rd and 4th respectively. That is 4 psi off my target curve, and expected with my WGDC, yeah. What is weird to me is some of the data. Why is boost so low even at 3k RPM? Why so late, and why full boost at part throttle so early on gradual throttle ramp up. It seems that boost comes on way too late compared to RPM. I am suspect of my BCS (GruppeS 3 port) or of my installation of it (routing and type of lines I used etc), and because of that considering replacing with the stock unit, pills and all. Looking for some suggestions here.
3 - The Boost curve looks nice a smooth and shaped even though its quite low and uncorrected. knock is good with only occasional 1s and 2s. AFR looks good. It seems ready to ramp it back up using the WGDC tables, but wanted some feedback on the oddities of the data first from you guys. (read:did I forget something or twist it around)
4 - OH, and I added some table that I don't know what they do from my reading. I included them here in case they have incorrect values I inherited. BCS Re De Activition, Min Load for Boost Control.
I also added the Hex things in case there is an obvious error there.
I will be tuning all day, reading all day, and repeating tomorrow. If there are some strong opinions of suggestions on the BCS so I don't waste too much time tuning a hopeless cause let me know.
THX
1 - You will notice crazy RPM sticking or revving after I am off throttle. Now I haven't had that before, but maybe a just a bit. I know logically it is not impacted by these settings. The battery did die last night because in all my reading I forgot I left the keys in the car. Don't know if the ECU has some mechanism to keep Revs higher when voltage is deemed too low. I include the comment here in case its indicative of any other mistake I may have made with tables or scalings and all that. I have attached a zip of 3 xcel files.
2 - Boost is going to 20-21 peak, 3rd and 4th respectively. That is 4 psi off my target curve, and expected with my WGDC, yeah. What is weird to me is some of the data. Why is boost so low even at 3k RPM? Why so late, and why full boost at part throttle so early on gradual throttle ramp up. It seems that boost comes on way too late compared to RPM. I am suspect of my BCS (GruppeS 3 port) or of my installation of it (routing and type of lines I used etc), and because of that considering replacing with the stock unit, pills and all. Looking for some suggestions here.
3 - The Boost curve looks nice a smooth and shaped even though its quite low and uncorrected. knock is good with only occasional 1s and 2s. AFR looks good. It seems ready to ramp it back up using the WGDC tables, but wanted some feedback on the oddities of the data first from you guys. (read:did I forget something or twist it around)
4 - OH, and I added some table that I don't know what they do from my reading. I included them here in case they have incorrect values I inherited. BCS Re De Activition, Min Load for Boost Control.
I also added the Hex things in case there is an obvious error there.
I will be tuning all day, reading all day, and repeating tomorrow. If there are some strong opinions of suggestions on the BCS so I don't waste too much time tuning a hopeless cause let me know.
THX
Last edited by fireroasted; Jun 5, 2009 at 02:47 PM.
Jun 5, 2009, 04:34 PM
#708
Gah, sorry... I missed it. Did you check over the equations for your scalings? I modified mine (on purpose) to compensate for the adder. Is it possible they are modified?
5.18 is an "arbitrary" number to equate voltage in bits to pressure. I believe it comes from values 0-255 IE
128/24.6(max boost val from table)/2(multiplier since other equations are +/-) = ~5.18
It would be best to know what voltage your sensor outputs at different pressures. At rest/1 ATM/0 psi you can use that for your 0 value, and at 5v you can equate that to full boost and val 255.
If you lost battery power the car may be re-learning the ISCV routines and probably defaults to preventing a stall rather than quick drop. It will re-learn with time
Stockish IX setups will hit full boost ~ 2750 in 5th, and ~500rpm later in each gear lower than that.
Boost is not anywhere near linear with throttle. The little twin scroll turbo loves to spool, so with 70% throttle you can be near full boost. Most of the power differences come with timing on the smaller turbo. If you want it to be more linear v6/v7 have a WGDC% vs TPS table that can smooth things out, but otherwise enjoy the early spool
. Its easier/quicker to change timing than boost.
Things look OK as far as I can see. If your redline is higher than the value in the deactivation cells you should increase it to whatever your redline is (or max them out) otherwise wgdc will go to 100% at that RPM.
Just start ramping things up slowly. Remember, small changes can make big jumps
Question on scaling this for a 5 bar.
The x/(5.18 *2) how or what are these values?
Is the 5.18 the voltage maximum for the system? I need to reverse these values to come to an understanding what formula will work for a 5 bar setup which doesn't' use the entire voltage range.
The x/(5.18 *2) how or what are these values?
Is the 5.18 the voltage maximum for the system? I need to reverse these values to come to an understanding what formula will work for a 5 bar setup which doesn't' use the entire voltage range.
128/24.6(max boost val from table)/2(multiplier since other equations are +/-) = ~5.18
It would be best to know what voltage your sensor outputs at different pressures. At rest/1 ATM/0 psi you can use that for your 0 value, and at 5v you can equate that to full boost and val 255.
I completed some logs today with BEC zeroed, WGDCs set to 50s. Things are much clearer to me now, but some of the data isn't as I expected based on my reading. And yes I reread this entire thread last night, and all the gear dependent boost control threads as well (that will hopefully be next).
1 - You will notice crazy RPM sticking or revving after I am off throttle. Now I haven't had that before, but maybe a just a bit. I know logically it is not impacted by these settings. The battery did die last night because in all my reading I forgot I left the keys in the car. Don't know if the ECU has some mechanism to keep Revs higher when voltage is deemed too low. I include the comment here in case its indicative of any other mistake I may have made with tables or scalings and all that. I have attached a zip of 3 xcel files.
2 - Boost is going to 20-21 peak, 3rd and 4th respectively. That is 4 psi off my target curve, and expected with my WGDC, yeah. What is weird to me is some of the data. Why is boost so low even at 3k RPM? Why so late, and why full boost at part throttle so early on gradual throttle ramp up. It seems that boost comes on way too late compared to RPM. I am suspect of my BCS (GruppeS 3 port) or of my installation of it (routing and type of lines I used etc), and because of that considering replacing with the stock unit, pills and all. Looking for some suggestions here.
3 - The Boost curve looks nice a smooth and shaped even though its quite low and uncorrected. knock is good with only occasional 1s and 2s. AFR looks good. It seems ready to ramp it back up using the WGDC tables, but wanted some feedback on the oddities of the data first from you guys. (read:did I forget something or twist it around)
4 - OH, and I added some table that I don't know what they do from my reading. I included them here in case they have incorrect values I inherited. BCS Re De Activition, Min Load for Boost Control.
I also added the Hex things in case there is an obvious error there.
I will be tuning all day, reading all day, and repeating tomorrow. If there are some strong opinions of suggestions on the BCS so I don't waste too much time tuning a hopeless cause let me know.
THX
1 - You will notice crazy RPM sticking or revving after I am off throttle. Now I haven't had that before, but maybe a just a bit. I know logically it is not impacted by these settings. The battery did die last night because in all my reading I forgot I left the keys in the car. Don't know if the ECU has some mechanism to keep Revs higher when voltage is deemed too low. I include the comment here in case its indicative of any other mistake I may have made with tables or scalings and all that. I have attached a zip of 3 xcel files.
2 - Boost is going to 20-21 peak, 3rd and 4th respectively. That is 4 psi off my target curve, and expected with my WGDC, yeah. What is weird to me is some of the data. Why is boost so low even at 3k RPM? Why so late, and why full boost at part throttle so early on gradual throttle ramp up. It seems that boost comes on way too late compared to RPM. I am suspect of my BCS (GruppeS 3 port) or of my installation of it (routing and type of lines I used etc), and because of that considering replacing with the stock unit, pills and all. Looking for some suggestions here.
3 - The Boost curve looks nice a smooth and shaped even though its quite low and uncorrected. knock is good with only occasional 1s and 2s. AFR looks good. It seems ready to ramp it back up using the WGDC tables, but wanted some feedback on the oddities of the data first from you guys. (read:did I forget something or twist it around)
4 - OH, and I added some table that I don't know what they do from my reading. I included them here in case they have incorrect values I inherited. BCS Re De Activition, Min Load for Boost Control.
I also added the Hex things in case there is an obvious error there.
I will be tuning all day, reading all day, and repeating tomorrow. If there are some strong opinions of suggestions on the BCS so I don't waste too much time tuning a hopeless cause let me know.
THX
Stockish IX setups will hit full boost ~ 2750 in 5th, and ~500rpm later in each gear lower than that.
Boost is not anywhere near linear with throttle. The little twin scroll turbo loves to spool, so with 70% throttle you can be near full boost. Most of the power differences come with timing on the smaller turbo. If you want it to be more linear v6/v7 have a WGDC% vs TPS table that can smooth things out, but otherwise enjoy the early spool
. Its easier/quicker to change timing than boost.Things look OK as far as I can see. If your redline is higher than the value in the deactivation cells you should increase it to whatever your redline is (or max them out) otherwise wgdc will go to 100% at that RPM.
Just start ramping things up slowly. Remember, small changes can make big jumps
Jun 5, 2009, 04:51 PM
#709
Thanks Foustytou,
What initiates values in the WGDC table from 0 to my set 50. I can't answer that for myself for some reason.
Do you have a opinion about tuning with the 3 port BCS versus stock. I am not using any resistors, and the hoses are thick. Was also trying to find a post on here I saw a long time ago about the How To of installing the 3 port BCS. I did read MrFred BCS test thread. Good lord, but that just made me nervous to put my stock unit back in.
Basically there is an odd droany sound when WOT, that didn't exist before the BCS or the IC pipes. Its difficult to describe, but it doesn't sound right. Process of ellimination has me thinking I have to put in the stock BCS, retune, and see if the behavior goes away.
However I know that a 3 port is better, from my reading, at managing and holding higher booost.
M
What initiates values in the WGDC table from 0 to my set 50. I can't answer that for myself for some reason.
Do you have a opinion about tuning with the 3 port BCS versus stock. I am not using any resistors, and the hoses are thick. Was also trying to find a post on here I saw a long time ago about the How To of installing the 3 port BCS. I did read MrFred BCS test thread. Good lord, but that just made me nervous to put my stock unit back in.
Basically there is an odd droany sound when WOT, that didn't exist before the BCS or the IC pipes. Its difficult to describe, but it doesn't sound right. Process of ellimination has me thinking I have to put in the stock BCS, retune, and see if the behavior goes away.
However I know that a 3 port is better, from my reading, at managing and holding higher booost.
M
Jun 6, 2009, 12:50 AM
#710
I tried out the Stock BCS and tuned up a bit to compensate, and that didn't solve that weird droaning sound. I will have to let that go. Like Foustytou would say, your chasing ghosts. 
I reinstalled the Prodrive, and updated to 2 byte load. Picked up some knock on the tuning so am dialing back some timing very lightly at those load points.
Getting clean and smooth pulls with a little dip in boost after peak (no BEC turned on yet). Just getting into some pulls where peak is hitting almost zero BEC. Now I wonder what a typical well tuned BB table looks like on a TBE 9MR. I want to follow the boost the car is making in the BB table somewhat so that I don't ask for a curve that isn't realistic or close and requires pointless attempts at big corrections, but it seems that my data moves a round a bit depending on how long I have been in part throttle or if I just dump into WOT all of a sudden. i.e. I get higher boost values at 2500 RPM if I build up through the RPMs gradually, so that would allow me to set higher values in the BB table for that RPM, but if I am at 2k RPM and just floor it at once, the boost catches up, and the boost for the RPM numbers are lower. So I wonder where I should be setting my BB to begin with since that is what I am referencing.
hahaha, this is where the years of experience comes in I guess. I think I am official hooked.
all - Thanks for jump starting me and the continued help......
M
I reinstalled the Prodrive, and updated to 2 byte load. Picked up some knock on the tuning so am dialing back some timing very lightly at those load points.
Getting clean and smooth pulls with a little dip in boost after peak (no BEC turned on yet). Just getting into some pulls where peak is hitting almost zero BEC. Now I wonder what a typical well tuned BB table looks like on a TBE 9MR. I want to follow the boost the car is making in the BB table somewhat so that I don't ask for a curve that isn't realistic or close and requires pointless attempts at big corrections, but it seems that my data moves a round a bit depending on how long I have been in part throttle or if I just dump into WOT all of a sudden. i.e. I get higher boost values at 2500 RPM if I build up through the RPMs gradually, so that would allow me to set higher values in the BB table for that RPM, but if I am at 2k RPM and just floor it at once, the boost catches up, and the boost for the RPM numbers are lower. So I wonder where I should be setting my BB to begin with since that is what I am referencing.
hahaha, this is where the years of experience comes in I guess. I think I am official hooked.
all - Thanks for jump starting me and the continued help......
M
Last edited by fireroasted; Jun 6, 2009 at 01:26 AM.
Jun 6, 2009, 12:57 AM
#711
5.18 is an "arbitrary" number to equate voltage in bits to pressure. I believe it comes from values 0-255 IE
128/24.6(max boost val from table)/2(multiplier since other equations are +/-) = ~5.18
It would be best to know what voltage your sensor outputs at different pressures. At rest/1 ATM/0 psi you can use that for your 0 value, and at 5v you can equate that to full boost and val 255.
128/24.6(max boost val from table)/2(multiplier since other equations are +/-) = ~5.18
It would be best to know what voltage your sensor outputs at different pressures. At rest/1 ATM/0 psi you can use that for your 0 value, and at 5v you can equate that to full boost and val 255.
0.5 is the minimum the sensor will goto thats 0 Bar
4.5 volts is the max the sensor sees at 5 Bar
1 bar will right at 1.3volts or 0psi
Jun 6, 2009, 07:55 AM
#713
I'm using the OMNI power 4 bar map sensor and I used John Bradley's setup for ADC values.
However...my ECU based boost control is referencing some weird offset of my actual boost. Logged boost values are correct, target boost settings and boost adders are correct, the ecu based boost control targets a boost approximately 7psi higher than my inputted target boost.
Is this the map vs. baro offset? lmk
88970015 - Evo9
However...my ECU based boost control is referencing some weird offset of my actual boost. Logged boost values are correct, target boost settings and boost adders are correct, the ecu based boost control targets a boost approximately 7psi higher than my inputted target boost.
Is this the map vs. baro offset? lmk
88970015 - Evo9
Jun 6, 2009, 09:14 AM
#714
The setting I recommended were actually similar to my settings. Every car is different... You might see higher boost, earlier on than I do, and you might need less duty cycle than I need, which this might be the case. I would guess that was a 4th gear pull. You will boost slightly more in higher gears. Lower your duty cycle. Zero out your BEC, do a 3rd gear pull from 2000rpm to 7000, maybe 7500. Then do a 4th gear pull from 3000 to same. And try to find the middle ground between hitting target boost in 3rd, and overshooting in 4th, and 5th, and maybe 6th.
Im not sure if you started your pull when you heard the voice command, or it just started as you were doing your pull, because of the TPS issue. Im not sure wsup w/ that. What is your formula in evoscan?
Another thing, re-scale your rpm axis for your boost tables(WGDC/BaselineBoost), to get better resolution/control where you need it. 500/2000/2500/3000/3500/3750/4000/4250/4500/4750/5000/5500/6000/6500/7000/7500, or however you like. Since you have 100% duty cycle till 2500, you could better utilize the 1000/1500/2250/2750 cells. You will have more control over the meaty part of the powerband, rather than spool up.
Im not sure if you started your pull when you heard the voice command, or it just started as you were doing your pull, because of the TPS issue. Im not sure wsup w/ that. What is your formula in evoscan?
Another thing, re-scale your rpm axis for your boost tables(WGDC/BaselineBoost), to get better resolution/control where you need it. 500/2000/2500/3000/3500/3750/4000/4250/4500/4750/5000/5500/6000/6500/7000/7500, or however you like. Since you have 100% duty cycle till 2500, you could better utilize the 1000/1500/2250/2750 cells. You will have more control over the meaty part of the powerband, rather than spool up.
Nonschlont suggested this re-scale, a few posts back to me. After having now gone through logging and logging and logging and flashing for boost I see his point. However , can I just type these values in the left side of the table in ECUFlash? Or do I need to change something in an xml file? Sorry if this is too noob of a question, but there are posts about scaling (pic links busted mostly, How to Scale MAF), so I am wondering if there is more to it or not.
M
Jun 6, 2009, 12:23 PM
#716
Nonschlont suggested this re-scale, a few posts back to me. After having now gone through logging and logging and logging and flashing for boost I see his point. However , can I just type these values in the left side of the table in ECUFlash? Or do I need to change something in an xml file? Sorry if this is too noob of a question, but there are posts about scaling (pic links busted mostly, How to Scale MAF), so I am wondering if there is more to it or not.
M
M
all you need to do is click "=/+ button, it will pop up w/ a lil screen, you input what ever value you want, then click enter.
Last edited by nonschlont; Jun 6, 2009 at 12:25 PM.
Jun 6, 2009, 12:59 PM
#717
Is it linear?
(255/5)*.5 = 25.5 (you'll just have to round up here)
(255/5)*1.3=66.3 (round down)
(255/5)*4.5=229.5 (round up again...)
So your equation (if linear) should be something like (255/5)*X [volts] + 3^-14 (If I'm thinking about this correctly). Solve for X and you get ~:
Y bar = .0245*(X [bits]) -.625
or
Y psi = 0.3555*(X [bits]) - 23.569
(cheater sheet here: http://thefrost.net/randomfiles/tuni...ns_bit_val.xls )
You might have to do some interpretation between this and the "how to log boost with JDM Map" thread to get things to work properly. Of course note that this is just my interpretation from my high level understanding. Maybe MrFred can take a look if he gets a chance.
Didn't JCSBanks or JohnBradley do a 5 bar setup in a thread?
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/6778192-post592.html
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/6800781-post596.html
Nonschlont suggested this re-scale, a few posts back to me. After having now gone through logging and logging and logging and flashing for boost I see his point. However , can I just type these values in the left side of the table in ECUFlash? Or do I need to change something in an xml file? Sorry if this is too noob of a question, but there are posts about scaling (pic links busted mostly, How to Scale MAF), so I am wondering if there is more to it or not.
M
M
Jun 6, 2009, 01:56 PM
#718
Thanks guys,
Came out pretty good. At least for a virgin and based on the knock and AFR values. Its detuned a bit from how I got it, but at least I did it myself and its safer based on the logs. I am off to laguna seca for Monday's track day.
When I added the BEC in I got a couple counts of knock. When I turned it off again, smooth as butter. Weird, I would have expected the reverse, but I guess my adjustments might be slightly too big. That and my actually BB curve probably needs some more review.
scaling the talbes went fine. It did change a the others (for boost) automatically, which made sense.
M
Came out pretty good. At least for a virgin and based on the knock and AFR values. Its detuned a bit from how I got it, but at least I did it myself and its safer based on the logs. I am off to laguna seca for Monday's track day.
When I added the BEC in I got a couple counts of knock. When I turned it off again, smooth as butter. Weird, I would have expected the reverse, but I guess my adjustments might be slightly too big. That and my actually BB curve probably needs some more review.
scaling the talbes went fine. It did change a the others (for boost) automatically, which made sense.
M
Jun 6, 2009, 06:59 PM
#719
24.6 is always the max for that table as defined. I think it comes down to how you set the ECU to interpret the input, then it will output a bit value based on the input voltage and what is in your tables (If I am understanding it correctly).
Is it linear?
(255/5)*.5 = 25.5 (you'll just have to round up here)
(255/5)*1.3=66.3 (round down)
(255/5)*4.5=229.5 (round up again...)
So your equation (if linear) should be something like (255/5)*X [volts] + 3^-14 (If I'm thinking about this correctly). Solve for X and you get ~:
Y bar = .0245*(X [bits]) -.625
or
Y psi = 0.3555*(X [bits]) - 23.569
(cheater sheet here: http://thefrost.net/randomfiles/tuni...ns_bit_val.xls )
You might have to do some interpretation between this and the "how to log boost with JDM Map" thread to get things to work properly. Of course note that this is just my interpretation from my high level understanding. Maybe MrFred can take a look if he gets a chance.
Didn't JCSBanks or JohnBradley do a 5 bar setup in a thread?
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/6778192-post592.html
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/6800781-post596.html
Is it linear?
(255/5)*.5 = 25.5 (you'll just have to round up here)
(255/5)*1.3=66.3 (round down)
(255/5)*4.5=229.5 (round up again...)
So your equation (if linear) should be something like (255/5)*X [volts] + 3^-14 (If I'm thinking about this correctly). Solve for X and you get ~:
Y bar = .0245*(X [bits]) -.625
or
Y psi = 0.3555*(X [bits]) - 23.569
(cheater sheet here: http://thefrost.net/randomfiles/tuni...ns_bit_val.xls )
You might have to do some interpretation between this and the "how to log boost with JDM Map" thread to get things to work properly. Of course note that this is just my interpretation from my high level understanding. Maybe MrFred can take a look if he gets a chance.
Didn't JCSBanks or JohnBradley do a 5 bar setup in a thread?
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/6778192-post592.html
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/6800781-post596.html
.Those values are literally the same code i use to log boost with.
Jun 6, 2009, 07:45 PM
#720
Here's my current scaling does this look correct to you?
<scaling name="psi16(5bar)" units="psi" toexpr="(x*0.3555) - 23.569" frexpr="(x + 23.569)/0.3555 " format="%.2f" min="0" max="60" inc="0.26" storagetype="uint16" endian="big"/>
<scaling name="psi8(5bar)" units="psi" toexpr="(x*0.3555) - 23.569" frexpr="(x + 23.569)/0.3555" format="%.2f" min="0" max="60" inc="0.25" storagetype="uint8" endian="little"/>
<scaling name="BoostErrorPsi(5bar)" units="psi" toexpr="((x-128)*0.088875) - 23.569" frexpr="((x+ 23.569 ) /0.088875) +128" format="%.2f" min="-10" max="10" inc="0.5" storagetype="uint16" endian="big"/>
<scaling name="psi16(5bar)" units="psi" toexpr="(x*0.3555) - 23.569" frexpr="(x + 23.569)/0.3555 " format="%.2f" min="0" max="60" inc="0.26" storagetype="uint16" endian="big"/>
<scaling name="psi8(5bar)" units="psi" toexpr="(x*0.3555) - 23.569" frexpr="(x + 23.569)/0.3555" format="%.2f" min="0" max="60" inc="0.25" storagetype="uint8" endian="little"/>
<scaling name="BoostErrorPsi(5bar)" units="psi" toexpr="((x-128)*0.088875) - 23.569" frexpr="((x+ 23.569 ) /0.088875) +128" format="%.2f" min="-10" max="10" inc="0.5" storagetype="uint16" endian="big"/>