How to tune 800whp
Evolving Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 229
Likes: 1
From: Lima, Peru
This is such a nice thread, I have a couple questions regarding timing with race fuel (106 - 110 ron octane) with a GT40/272 HKS cams in a DSM.
How close are the timing curves/requirements between an Evo 5-8 and a 4G63 2.0L Talon?
I ask beacuse I´ve seen a map in a friend´s low 10 second car that has been give a weird looking timing map; it is tuned to 29 psi only and for example in the 29 psi column (Haltech sport 1000) it has 17° at 4500 rpm and stays at 17° all the way to 9500 rpm. It is the same for all boost parts of the map, as if they respect the flow of "higher boost less timing" but they are not giving attention to "higher rpm higher timing for any given boost".
Is this acceptable? I would never map my Evo like that regardless of fuel. I´m telling my friend he´s on the ragged edge and risking his engine by running 17° at 4500 - 5500 rpm, what do you guys think.
Thanks,
RJSP
How close are the timing curves/requirements between an Evo 5-8 and a 4G63 2.0L Talon?
I ask beacuse I´ve seen a map in a friend´s low 10 second car that has been give a weird looking timing map; it is tuned to 29 psi only and for example in the 29 psi column (Haltech sport 1000) it has 17° at 4500 rpm and stays at 17° all the way to 9500 rpm. It is the same for all boost parts of the map, as if they respect the flow of "higher boost less timing" but they are not giving attention to "higher rpm higher timing for any given boost".
Is this acceptable? I would never map my Evo like that regardless of fuel. I´m telling my friend he´s on the ragged edge and risking his engine by running 17° at 4500 - 5500 rpm, what do you guys think.
Thanks,
RJSP
Boom
This is such a nice thread, I have a couple questions regarding timing with race fuel (106 - 110 ron octane) with a GT40/272 HKS cams in a DSM.
How close are the timing curves/requirements between an Evo 5-8 and a 4G63 2.0L Talon?
I ask beacuse I´ve seen a map in a friend´s low 10 second car that has been give a weird looking timing map; it is tuned to 29 psi only and for example in the 29 psi column (Haltech sport 1000) it has 17° at 4500 rpm and stays at 17° all the way to 9500 rpm. It is the same for all boost parts of the map, as if they respect the flow of "higher boost less timing" but they are not giving attention to "higher rpm higher timing for any given boost".
Is this acceptable? I would never map my Evo like that regardless of fuel. I´m telling my friend he´s on the ragged edge and risking his engine by running 17° at 4500 - 5500 rpm, what do you guys think.
Thanks,
RJSP
How close are the timing curves/requirements between an Evo 5-8 and a 4G63 2.0L Talon?
I ask beacuse I´ve seen a map in a friend´s low 10 second car that has been give a weird looking timing map; it is tuned to 29 psi only and for example in the 29 psi column (Haltech sport 1000) it has 17° at 4500 rpm and stays at 17° all the way to 9500 rpm. It is the same for all boost parts of the map, as if they respect the flow of "higher boost less timing" but they are not giving attention to "higher rpm higher timing for any given boost".
Is this acceptable? I would never map my Evo like that regardless of fuel. I´m telling my friend he´s on the ragged edge and risking his engine by running 17° at 4500 - 5500 rpm, what do you guys think.
Thanks,
RJSP
Evolved Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 800
Likes: 0
From: Newcastle, Australia.
This is such a nice thread, I have a couple questions regarding timing with race fuel (106 - 110 ron octane) with a GT40/272 HKS cams in a DSM.
How close are the timing curves/requirements between an Evo 5-8 and a 4G63 2.0L Talon?
I ask beacuse I´ve seen a map in a friend´s low 10 second car that has been give a weird looking timing map; it is tuned to 29 psi only and for example in the 29 psi column (Haltech sport 1000) it has 17° at 4500 rpm and stays at 17° all the way to 9500 rpm. It is the same for all boost parts of the map, as if they respect the flow of "higher boost less timing" but they are not giving attention to "higher rpm higher timing for any given boost".
Is this acceptable? I would never map my Evo like that regardless of fuel. I´m telling my friend he´s on the ragged edge and risking his engine by running 17° at 4500 - 5500 rpm, what do you guys think.
Thanks,
RJSP
How close are the timing curves/requirements between an Evo 5-8 and a 4G63 2.0L Talon?
I ask beacuse I´ve seen a map in a friend´s low 10 second car that has been give a weird looking timing map; it is tuned to 29 psi only and for example in the 29 psi column (Haltech sport 1000) it has 17° at 4500 rpm and stays at 17° all the way to 9500 rpm. It is the same for all boost parts of the map, as if they respect the flow of "higher boost less timing" but they are not giving attention to "higher rpm higher timing for any given boost".
Is this acceptable? I would never map my Evo like that regardless of fuel. I´m telling my friend he´s on the ragged edge and risking his engine by running 17° at 4500 - 5500 rpm, what do you guys think.
Thanks,
RJSP
Evolving Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 229
Likes: 1
From: Lima, Peru
Thanks guys, the two Booms confirm my views as well. I´ll have a look at my friends log from the last 1/4 mile pass he did. I´m guessing since he´s got a large turbo and only has done a few pulls, his car has only been run hard in the 6.5K - 9.5K rpm range (as it´s set up to launch at 7K and he shifts near 9.5K) and that´s why his engine is still alive. If the car where loaded from below 4K rpm it could blow up real fast.
I'm on ap4 michelin snow tires 245/40/18 and with 424mustang whp i still barely brake traction in 2nd in the wet. I wonder if it's the ohlins and upgraded suspension but i'm hoping to at least spin 2nd when i get to 500 mustang whp.
Evolving Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 424
Likes: 3
From: Russia, Moscow
You just need more midrange torque to spin your tires. I had 338whp on mustang dyno on stock 2L +9turbo+kelfords272, and 496Nm wtq. On superflow dyno that was 430hp and 635nm (calculated at flywheel). That smoked tires in 2nd and spined them in 3rd on wet.
In the dry 5mph roll on I dont even break traction in first.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11,406
Likes: 78
From: Northwest
Almost forgot about this thread.
One thing I should point out based on the 92 octane log is the 4v near the end showed nothing on the plugs, no exhaust leaks/broken welds, but I did have a downpipe that was really close to the tie bar. I have done timing sweeps on the car since (awhile ago now) the initial posting and found that it made the same power at 13* with no appreciable change in voltage after the downpipe was corrected. It was back down to 2.3v or so.
One thing I should point out based on the 92 octane log is the 4v near the end showed nothing on the plugs, no exhaust leaks/broken welds, but I did have a downpipe that was really close to the tie bar. I have done timing sweeps on the car since (awhile ago now) the initial posting and found that it made the same power at 13* with no appreciable change in voltage after the downpipe was corrected. It was back down to 2.3v or so.
Evolved Member
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 816
Likes: 82
From: wisconsin
I know this is an old thread, but I would just like to thank John For starting and contributing to this thread. It gave me a good baseline to tune from with a large turbo. I'm up too 766hp on a Borg s366, confident of 800 in a couple of days 
!! I'm not a tuner, but I figured I would give it a try. Thanks again for sharing info on this subject! Maybe someday (shootout hopefully) we can meet, thanks John.
!! I'm not a tuner, but I figured I would give it a try. Thanks again for sharing info on this subject! Maybe someday (shootout hopefully) we can meet, thanks John.
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2022
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: South Africa
Tom,
2150s and the Magnafuel 625 pro tuner fuel pump with -8 feed for fuel system. That is the run where the car peaked at 561 ft lbs. The timing is low to keep traction with the 265 street tires that are on the car. It has been on E85 after the tank of gasoline burned out that was in it when I broke it in and took it to the dyno back in may. I put it back on gasoline here recently when it was getting cold but the NW is up and down on temps so it will probably go back to E85 and I'll worry about the starting when it gets cold again. This is E85 from the pump, not mixed by the way.
My car is ridiculous at pretty much anything over 26psi. It makes 657/477 then and will haze the tires pretty good in 1-2 and then hook 3rd nice, I normally run 30 (700-718). I took the car out at 32psi right before thanksgiving on E85 to see what it does and at that boost level it makes 750whp. I had nothing really until the top of 3rd but it was lots of fun. The car is controllable as long as you are prepared and modulate the throttle.
That is turbo noise, notice peak boost. Taking the timing out didnt do anything but drop power (knock voltage was the same). I made 4 pulls at 794 with this so it wasnt a fluke and I wanted to make sure the tune was okay. i have Kiggly valvesprings and custom cams that generate valve noise, the motor is loose, the turbo is loud, the echo from the dump makes a big difference on the dyno, etc. Key word is experience, knowing that it was okay to ignore in this case despite what was happening powerwise.
I still try to shoot for zero, and only allow inconsistent knock, nothing that is easily repeated stays in the car as thats past the threshold.
Gen-
This post was to show whats happening in the motor, length of pull, etc. but its obvious it doesnt help past that. Tuning is still about experience and feel to a degree and knowing what all the numbers posted at the outset really mean. Anyone can plug these numbers into a car but it doesnt mean its going to work or last. I had said there werent going to be any logs after it made 708, but I got bored and thought it might be interesting to have a mid winter discussion about making high horsepower. Not showing off, just hoping others that have made the same power are willing to show what they do or at least comment on their approach.
I can post Mikeys later to show what a 10.5:1 compression 2.4/Black car at 38psi likes as well.
aaron
2150s and the Magnafuel 625 pro tuner fuel pump with -8 feed for fuel system. That is the run where the car peaked at 561 ft lbs. The timing is low to keep traction with the 265 street tires that are on the car. It has been on E85 after the tank of gasoline burned out that was in it when I broke it in and took it to the dyno back in may. I put it back on gasoline here recently when it was getting cold but the NW is up and down on temps so it will probably go back to E85 and I'll worry about the starting when it gets cold again. This is E85 from the pump, not mixed by the way.
My car is ridiculous at pretty much anything over 26psi. It makes 657/477 then and will haze the tires pretty good in 1-2 and then hook 3rd nice, I normally run 30 (700-718). I took the car out at 32psi right before thanksgiving on E85 to see what it does and at that boost level it makes 750whp. I had nothing really until the top of 3rd but it was lots of fun. The car is controllable as long as you are prepared and modulate the throttle.
That is turbo noise, notice peak boost. Taking the timing out didnt do anything but drop power (knock voltage was the same). I made 4 pulls at 794 with this so it wasnt a fluke and I wanted to make sure the tune was okay. i have Kiggly valvesprings and custom cams that generate valve noise, the motor is loose, the turbo is loud, the echo from the dump makes a big difference on the dyno, etc. Key word is experience, knowing that it was okay to ignore in this case despite what was happening powerwise.
I still try to shoot for zero, and only allow inconsistent knock, nothing that is easily repeated stays in the car as thats past the threshold.
Gen-
This post was to show whats happening in the motor, length of pull, etc. but its obvious it doesnt help past that. Tuning is still about experience and feel to a degree and knowing what all the numbers posted at the outset really mean. Anyone can plug these numbers into a car but it doesnt mean its going to work or last. I had said there werent going to be any logs after it made 708, but I got bored and thought it might be interesting to have a mid winter discussion about making high horsepower. Not showing off, just hoping others that have made the same power are willing to show what they do or at least comment on their approach.
I can post Mikeys later to show what a 10.5:1 compression 2.4/Black car at 38psi likes as well.
aaron
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