General non-information about factory ALS
Newbie
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 80
Likes: 3
From: Cluj
you need vertical feed pipes , size is good for amator use just the banjo is the bottle neck(there were few japanese manufacturer for these -but for evo 6 -they can be adapted- you also want to make small canges to the sas valve and you need a big vacum acumulator and electric vacum pump, unless you have double valve controll -similar to external wastegate double controll-vacum and pressure on both sides of the control membrane in the sas valve,or use moog solenoids for electromagnetic control as for the past 10 years in motorsports...i want to give you hints about control stategies but it seems people here don't want to hear what i have to say,
i've been around rally cars for 20 years, and around rally evos from the time of evo4, you don't get info i can provide you anywhere because people involved 20 years ago in developing this technology spent milions to do it and are not very keen to share it... i am pretty shure not many have been around a BRR, MML car or spoken to any of the engineers from ralliart/hks uk who worked on this cars since 1990... what you try to do has been done since 1995 so all variables are known - is old school already and you won't blow a engine just get to point of exhaust gas reversion(if you noticed the tables i posted before you have PLENUM DAMPING- which does some magic here) or overspin turbo if you don't know what to do, because you can't feed both engine and manifold with proper air mass because at some point manifold pressure will be very high-that is why you have a one way valve in the sas valve...
ps. subaru roket has nothing to do with sas, it works like the ramjet rocket engine......) this is 1913 patednted technology so is 100years old at least
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbIojOKp3-k
i've been around rally cars for 20 years, and around rally evos from the time of evo4, you don't get info i can provide you anywhere because people involved 20 years ago in developing this technology spent milions to do it and are not very keen to share it... i am pretty shure not many have been around a BRR, MML car or spoken to any of the engineers from ralliart/hks uk who worked on this cars since 1990... what you try to do has been done since 1995 so all variables are known - is old school already and you won't blow a engine just get to point of exhaust gas reversion(if you noticed the tables i posted before you have PLENUM DAMPING- which does some magic here) or overspin turbo if you don't know what to do, because you can't feed both engine and manifold with proper air mass because at some point manifold pressure will be very high-that is why you have a one way valve in the sas valve...
ps. subaru roket has nothing to do with sas, it works like the ramjet rocket engine......) this is 1913 patednted technology so is 100years old at least
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbIojOKp3-k
Last edited by claudiumxg; Oct 26, 2011 at 09:39 AM.
You have made your point of saying the stock ECU cannot control to the full extent of which a real rally car can. I have been reading all of your posts thoroughly, and the only thing I can say, is the stock ECU has the ability to provide this function in one way or another. 20 years ago no one thought a stock ecu could be reprogrammed, edited and user interfaced like we have now. Im interested in moving forward, so thats where we will head!
Believe me, I understand to some extent what requirements you have listed and how it makes ALS very controlled and more reliable. I work with a vipec on a regular basis, there is functions/parameters I dont yet have a knowledge of what it does! I know that we own the 4th fastest snowmobile in the 1320 in the WORLD. 7.6x @ 170mph. And only 10 have made it in the 7 second club.
Youre being a naysayer in a forum which has proved many of them wrong.. take this with a grain of salt. Im feeling positive encouragment will be the best action! Why not encourage this procedure?
SAS is very similar to a rocket. Both force air into a hot manifold with rich air mixture or so they are designed. If that is not the case then please enlighten me with your expertise, we will only benefit from that!
Believe me, I understand to some extent what requirements you have listed and how it makes ALS very controlled and more reliable. I work with a vipec on a regular basis, there is functions/parameters I dont yet have a knowledge of what it does! I know that we own the 4th fastest snowmobile in the 1320 in the WORLD. 7.6x @ 170mph. And only 10 have made it in the 7 second club.
Youre being a naysayer in a forum which has proved many of them wrong.. take this with a grain of salt. Im feeling positive encouragment will be the best action! Why not encourage this procedure?
SAS is very similar to a rocket. Both force air into a hot manifold with rich air mixture or so they are designed. If that is not the case then please enlighten me with your expertise, we will only benefit from that!
Last edited by 211Ratsbud; Oct 25, 2011 at 12:05 PM.
Newbie
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 80
Likes: 3
From: Cluj
i'm not at all a naysayer )
evo sas is very similar to rocket at it's core- diffrence comes from the fact that rocket/ramjet allowes directional burn pattern(only towards turbo as in contrast to simple sas where the pressure goes to both turbo and engine- and you loose quite some of the energy just to push the gases around) .ie reduced by very big amount exhaust reversion and added suplimentary ventury effect to draw supllymentary air thorugh engine and just by adjusting ignition from negative to positive that to more advanced ignition controled torque output as the mixture is already flowing through engine... so what you need to concentrate on is ignition cut and retard ,fuel cut is not importand only to cool turbo. the magic is in the trasition startegey betven highly retarded ignition to normal ignition, ign retard gives you the boost pressure value, ign cut is for stablising a certain pressure level independent to tps- you get same pressure- diffrent flow- at different rpm =linear engine responce and proper control when you come of throttle, on launc it is diffrent strategy, different tps=different pressure at same rpm ; traction control is different animal it is torque related and is non linear -inverted bell shape torque request....
if you want to use sistem as per early evo 5gr.a sas-which is sistem you get on all evo's from factory- you need accumulator and 3d table sas-duty cycle with tps/rpm table (you could do a map/rpm table but this requires pid controll and is way harder), a separate 3d tps/rpm table with ignition retard and a 3d tps/rpm ignition cut but this last one has to be adaptive, ie has to run a patern so you don't get in to resonation on standard wasted spark ignition is a bit harder -this is why here fuel cut wil benefit as it's sequential and can be run in a pattern but is dangerous as it can lead lo lean spots so ignition cut is safer but you need to disable bov and open throttle by 5%(this migh be problematic without cyclic idle) or bypass it somehow as otherwise you can't initiate the process fast enough on overun, it is not instant with sas as with jacked throttle (wherejust ignition is the change) that is why you need quite some flow through sas- all this wil achieve 75% of what can be done
ps. egt monitoring is esential so you don't burn turbo/valves or create hot spots on valves and when you return on normal ignition you don't get into knock
as extra you could use a aditional 3d table throtlle enrichment tps/rpm+timer for when you reaacelerate after overun with agressive als-hot valves-knock- this is where a maf is used for modeling enrichment which on sd is very hard to do corect.
timers should be rev count related(certain rev amount in certain time amount) rather than absolute time related!!!!
a aditional overlay table for wastegate dutycyle table is needed - you wont find this even on motec for example )- this i wont say yet how is used or what it does.....this is for later time, after other tables are implemented and it works as this can cause even more trouble
ps. is your sled the one that had problems wit air temp corection on vipec?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
evo sas is very similar to rocket at it's core- diffrence comes from the fact that rocket/ramjet allowes directional burn pattern(only towards turbo as in contrast to simple sas where the pressure goes to both turbo and engine- and you loose quite some of the energy just to push the gases around) .ie reduced by very big amount exhaust reversion and added suplimentary ventury effect to draw supllymentary air thorugh engine and just by adjusting ignition from negative to positive that to more advanced ignition controled torque output as the mixture is already flowing through engine... so what you need to concentrate on is ignition cut and retard ,fuel cut is not importand only to cool turbo. the magic is in the trasition startegey betven highly retarded ignition to normal ignition, ign retard gives you the boost pressure value, ign cut is for stablising a certain pressure level independent to tps- you get same pressure- diffrent flow- at different rpm =linear engine responce and proper control when you come of throttle, on launc it is diffrent strategy, different tps=different pressure at same rpm ; traction control is different animal it is torque related and is non linear -inverted bell shape torque request....
if you want to use sistem as per early evo 5gr.a sas-which is sistem you get on all evo's from factory- you need accumulator and 3d table sas-duty cycle with tps/rpm table (you could do a map/rpm table but this requires pid controll and is way harder), a separate 3d tps/rpm table with ignition retard and a 3d tps/rpm ignition cut but this last one has to be adaptive, ie has to run a patern so you don't get in to resonation on standard wasted spark ignition is a bit harder -this is why here fuel cut wil benefit as it's sequential and can be run in a pattern but is dangerous as it can lead lo lean spots so ignition cut is safer but you need to disable bov and open throttle by 5%(this migh be problematic without cyclic idle) or bypass it somehow as otherwise you can't initiate the process fast enough on overun, it is not instant with sas as with jacked throttle (wherejust ignition is the change) that is why you need quite some flow through sas- all this wil achieve 75% of what can be done
ps. egt monitoring is esential so you don't burn turbo/valves or create hot spots on valves and when you return on normal ignition you don't get into knock
as extra you could use a aditional 3d table throtlle enrichment tps/rpm+timer for when you reaacelerate after overun with agressive als-hot valves-knock- this is where a maf is used for modeling enrichment which on sd is very hard to do corect.
timers should be rev count related(certain rev amount in certain time amount) rather than absolute time related!!!!
a aditional overlay table for wastegate dutycyle table is needed - you wont find this even on motec for example )- this i wont say yet how is used or what it does.....this is for later time, after other tables are implemented and it works as this can cause even more trouble
ps. is your sled the one that had problems wit air temp corection on vipec?
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Last edited by claudiumxg; Oct 26, 2011 at 09:40 AM.
you wrote a small novel but you totally missed the point of this thread .
Newbie
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 80
Likes: 3
From: Cluj
well fwiw, it was a lot of inside type info that will come in handy when somone wants to know and searches in the future. Also gives us an idea what we have to achieve in order to make this work on stock ECU.
It wasnt to offend you in any way what so ever if it did i apologise sincerely. As in most stock ecu als threads theres always someone who comes on and says how easy it is and how great it works with aftermarket ecus but thats not the point .
Newbie
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 80
Likes: 3
From: Cluj
ps. sensor pack for sas and wastegate control early gr.a evo 5 and 6(it even has a manual valve on it like a mbc)
Last edited by claudiumxg; Oct 26, 2011 at 11:12 PM.
le bored.
Used a little MAPP torch to simulate a backfire. Valve will plumb right in, going to use a reversed RFL bov to see if I can use the easily adjustable sping. Will be turned sideways though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgjT4-iMdb4&hd=1
plan is to see what I can accompish seeing as how the car follows the fuel map when lifting above about 4000 rpm. I am going to switch to 88580714 if need be. Otherwise I will give my SD rom a shot and see if overrun fuel and retarded ignition can accomplish any thing. I have two boost monitors inthe dash.
I kind of keep thinking about a 5th injector with a some sort of basic stamp, and a gain knob to adjust pwm when activated. Sort of like a piggy back.. just reference the TPS signal and if its > than "V" over a period of time system is armed, and when its = no foot on throttle it could be activated.
A) Keeping the BPV open on overrun could be tricky due to charge pipe pressure increasing.
b)??
C) ign clamp on overrun and possibly with a trigger IE tps > 96%
D) fuel overrun timer if I can get it removed: never shut injectors off (or would an adjustable IPW clamp work better?)
Used a little MAPP torch to simulate a backfire. Valve will plumb right in, going to use a reversed RFL bov to see if I can use the easily adjustable sping. Will be turned sideways though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgjT4-iMdb4&hd=1
plan is to see what I can accompish seeing as how the car follows the fuel map when lifting above about 4000 rpm. I am going to switch to 88580714 if need be. Otherwise I will give my SD rom a shot and see if overrun fuel and retarded ignition can accomplish any thing. I have two boost monitors inthe dash.
I kind of keep thinking about a 5th injector with a some sort of basic stamp, and a gain knob to adjust pwm when activated. Sort of like a piggy back.. just reference the TPS signal and if its > than "V" over a period of time system is armed, and when its = no foot on throttle it could be activated.
A) Keeping the BPV open on overrun could be tricky due to charge pipe pressure increasing.
b)??
C) ign clamp on overrun and possibly with a trigger IE tps > 96%
D) fuel overrun timer if I can get it removed: never shut injectors off (or would an adjustable IPW clamp work better?)
Last edited by 211Ratsbud; Dec 21, 2011 at 11:48 AM.