what does DG Motors have to say?

 

Wasnt this done a few months back with a certain white evo?

 

If I'm not mistaken I think DG runs there dyno either uncorrected "shootout" or 1.0CF

 

I am not knocking on DG motors at all.... Lets se if the customer shows up tomorrow for a dyno to compare. The Proof will be in the pudding.

The customer raced his friends EVO X and lost by a car after he left ICS, after DG tuned it he was dead even.. 40-50 whp 1/2 car or drivers error?

We will soon find out tomorrow morning.


-George Kakaletris

 

Invitation is open to you too if your curious. No harm intended to anyone who wants a FREE pull on my Dynojet.

-George Kakaletris

 

George

I want to add some basic information here on how the Dyno Dynamics dyno works so that people who are reading this can understand what we are talking about

Dyno Dynamics dyno is supposed to be run in a so called "Shootout Mode" to compare results from one dyno to another. This mode sets the dyno at zero correction and gives a fair dyn to dyno bench mark to make an inteligent comparision from one to the other.

While the Dyno Dynamics is an excelent tuning tool and can be used to accurately replicae the condition of operating a vehicle on a road or track, the way it accomplishes this accurancy in operational loading is by affording the end user a huge range of adjustments and controls - ALL of which effect how the car runs and the actual power reading measurement.

Most importantly, the Dyno Dynamics has a "control 'X"" function which allows the dyno operator to pick any multiplier he / she wants to increase OR decrease the power reading obtained by the dyno. Very alarmingly, this "correction factor" is not displayed on the dyno sheet.

To clarify when you make a run on a Dyno Dynamics dyno, the end user can then pull up your run file and adjust it either up or down how ever they want - higher or lower - and you have no way to know by looking at the sheet what "correction factor" has been employed.

The purpose of a correction factor is to level the results obtained at different altitudes, or under varying climatic conditions.

However, it seems from my experience that the correction factor on Dyno Dynamics is being used to conduct creative marketing at the expense of customers who have limited understanding of whta is going on and how it works.

From what I have seen the customers love to see a big dyno number and all they look at is the number on the page. This can lead to dyno manipulation where the control X button is used as a happy pill to distort the real numbers.

Also - a Dyno Dynamics is fully adjustable and the ramp speed, load, start and stop points, etc can all be fully adjusted and each of these settings will effect how the car runs on the dyno and the power produced.

By contrast - lets review how a Dyno Jet which is a USA made unit that is very popular in the States works

You do the run - there is no way to change how the dyno reads. It is simply two giant rollers which spin on fixed bearings and the dyno calculates how quickly the drums accelerate. Since all dyno jet dynos use the same settings and drums the results are very consistant from dyno to dyno.

Once you finish the run you can apply one of the set - fixed industry standard corrections - such as SAE, STD, DIN, etc which will then take the current climatic conditions and calculate a fixed NON adjustable correction for the present conditions at the time of the run and then print the power - climatic conditions and correction factor used ON THE DYNO SHEET.

The most important things to point out about Dyno Jet is

1 - The correction factor used (if any) is always printed on your dyno sheet

2- The correction factor can not be adjusted

3 - You can not change the correction factor after the run is made


The reason why George and myself are upset over this particular situation is becuase we took the time to go over this particular car very carefully and ran it a half dozen times on our dyno and saw a very repeatable and consistant power reading which did not change over a period of 13 months. After this, I personally took the car on the road and logged the tune and checked everything and the car was running 100% perfect and was very fast for the limited mods the customer has.

The only "problem" the car had - the customer was tuning up his boost to 26 - 27 and in 6th gear with his Buschur MBC I saw a peak boost spike near 30 psi. I suggested to the customer although the tune was safe (obviously as it lasted an entire year) I would prefer to see him run about 24 psi on pump gas and also I suggested a head stud upgrade.

Other than that his car was very strong and perhaps one of the best running Stage 2 stock cam Evo IX we have seen in many years of doing this.

To think that his car is going to run so well over such a long period of time and then suddenly a few days later show up at DG and loose power is simply not believable.

Also not believable to me is the tought that any other tune could add additional power to this car which was running on pump gas without manipulating the dyno or boost level.

As we all know tuning is rather basic - adjustment of a/f and ignition timing and in this case MIVEC. I have been tuning the IX's since before Evo Flash came out - back then using a crude hex editor and tech tom equipment I tuned a very similar car to run 11.56 in the 1/4 mile - maybe some of you remember this guy - member "Most Wanted". That was when he first bought his IX and I was one of 2 or 3 guys in the US who could tune the IX computer.

I think I know a thing or two about tuning Evos after so many years reflashing them on a daily basis and I have to call BS on this whole situation.

I have a nice video of the whole dyno session with the customer when he came by last week which I will put up later, its very interesting.

In conclusion

Anyone who is being fed dyno BS - if your car is being run on a Dyno Dynamics - please ask the dyno operator to show you the correction factor by entering "cntrl 'X'" that shill show you on the cpu screen the correction factor.

A Dyno Dynamics should only be used in Shootout Mode which locks out all the monkey business but sadly for what ever reason no one wants to use that mode.

Al

 

BTW = you can see that the dyno sheet I posted back on page one shows "UNCORRECTED" - meaning its heads up with no adjustment what so ever.

I find it insulting and pathetic to imagine that a car would run in the high 350 to 360 whp range for a period of 13 months and do so repeatably and consistantly on our dyno ver and over again and then suddenly a couple opf days later when it hits the DG dyno it has lost 50 missing whp

Even more bizzare is that DG claims to then have "found" that missing whp in the "tune" and then made even more

Now the customer feels that he will make 390 - 400 on a Dyno jet which would require about 33 psi of boost and race gas with his power level.

I have to call things the way I see them and in this case I call straight out BS

 

My point which I laid out above is that the end user has no way to know which correction factor is being used becuase it is not shown on the read out

Also, we have no way to know which correction factor was being used.

We see two lines on a page one of which is significantly higher than the other - sadly without any useful data to explain the variance

E.g. - Correction factor used on the two runs - boost level - a/f ratio - etc etc etc

Without the rest of the data, to me the power claimed is totally meaningless

My point in taking time to explain all of this is becuase sadly many customers are used to Dyno jet made in USA dynos and do not understand how the Australia made Dyno Dynamics dyno works and the kind of adjustments which can be made by the end user.

AN INFORMED and EDUCATED customer is my end goal.

The kind of snake oil deceptive and sneaky dyno maipulation that is going on with these adjustable dynos is very disappointing to me. I am hoping that a few people will read this information so they can ask good questions and seek useful information when they are paying for dyno time.

Al

 

You want me to print the sheets ?

I belive the car with a fully built motor, race fmic, tubular 62/62 turbo, double pumper, 1,000 injectors and Aem stand alone made approx 550 whp. Certainly a very safe and conservative tuning senario intended to facilitate the customer's stated objective to avoid blowing up his car. Nothing wrong with the car.


FYI

Over the past two years we have dynoed DOZENS And DOZENS of cars of all KINDS - you name it - who had been on adjustbale dynos such as Dyno Dynamics, Dyno Pak, Mustang, etc etc which then came on our dyno and made significantly less power on a non adjustable dyno

If I had $10 for every time this has happened I could buy another Evo

It just happend again on Friday when a certain turbo BMW appeared which some how was way down on power from what was claimed on an adjustbale DD dyno

To sumarize in a nut shell - unless the DD is in "Shootout Mode" your dyno sheet may be manipulated and false





Here is some data from Dyno Dynamics about the so called "Shootout Mode"

Chances are, many of you from around the automotive industry have already heard of the ShootOut system when dyno tuning cars. Dyno Dynamics, the manufacturer of Australia’s leading dynamometer brand, has for many years been considered the benchmark for both accuracy and repeatability. Now, after 4 years of effort (not to mention a substantial financial investment), they have just ‘upped the stakes’ - Dyno Dynamics has developed a system that is set to become the industry standard for power comparison. The system is called ShootOut, it is being utilised by a network of accredited Dyno Dynamics equipped workshops across Australia and will soon be available to all customers worldwide.

The ShootOut mode system is not just a hardware or software upgrade – it is a standardised approach to power measurement, designed to ensure that you can take your car to any accredited workshop and get accurate power measurements for your car. The results will be the same regardless of which ShootOut mode accredited workshop you select. This also means that results from different cars, measured on different dynos can be compared much more accurately which opens a lot of insight to power readings.

ShootOut was developed by Dyno Dynamics primarily to eliminate "Operator Technique" and as a tool for measuring horsepower accurately and CONSISTENTLY for ALL Dyno Dynamics dynos with Shootout accreditation. All dynos with Shootout accreditation have been calibrated the same accross the board, and should not vary more than 1% when comparing between Dyno Dynamics dynos.

Ethical standards
All ShootOut workshops must abide by a code of practice. When a company gets its ShootOut accreditation, it is only leasing the right to use the ShootOut mode and the ShootOut logos on the dynos, which are bgasically the physical and interlectual property of Dyno Dynamics. We are bound by a contractual agreement which is renewed on a yearly basis with very strict guidelines and procedures whenever we use the ShootOut logos on printed dyno graphs. If a company does not adhere to these guidelines, and decides to employ "Operator Techniques" and manipulate the ShootOut process, Dyno Dynamics will issue the company with a warning. After 3 warnings, the company loses their ShootOut Accreditation. Dyno Dynamics expect Dyno Operators to be honest and follow the required procedures in accordance with the ShootOut Agreement between the operator and Dyno Dynamics.

Proof of integrity
1. All ShootOut graph runs must be supervised by an accredited ShootOut scrutineer.
2. When the Shootineer is confident that the run has been performed to Dyno Dynamics’ ShootOut standards, the approved ShootOut logo will be added to the graph.
3. Test conditions and other data is printed on the lower edge of the graph as further evidence of accuracy.
4. When the graph is printed, the Shootineer will apply the official ShootOut stamp and personally sign it.
5. As final proof, the customer is provided with a checklist to verify that all steps in vehicle preparation for the test have been carried out correctly.

Whether you are planning on attending a ‘head to head’ dyno day, or want your vehicle tested to verify the effects of a performance enhancement – A Dyno Dynamics ShootOut accredited workshop will determine the figures accurately, time after time, regardless of location.

The XSpeed Performance Centre, located at 18 Zeta Crescent O'Connor WA, is a ShootOut accreddited workshop. Feel free to contact us to see what services we can provide for you.

For more information on Dyno Dynamics ShootOut mode, please log onto : www.dyno.com.au/shootout.htm

 

"Magic" it must be my friend

Are you still at the same 26 psi ?

What were your a/f ratios?

And most importantly are you comming down tomorrow am as you indicated to George to show us the 390 - 400 whp beast?

Maybe I can sprinkle some of this magic dust on my Evo race car and go 7's ?

 

My friend the sheet doesn't lie just look at your run compared to the new one and justify that please i think u made a run made look good on paper then u went back and changed the tune just a feeling also when i left the shop the car only felt a little stronger in the mid range cause of the slight tq spike,the air fuel was also in the mid to high 10's and sometimes low low 11's just look how the new power curve hits.

 

Not for nothing u call that a race car maybe u should let charlie sprinkle some majic on it so it run's a 10 forget the 7's will never happen in your lifetime bro bro.

 

Well tomorrow morning you and I have an appointment @ 8-9 A.M I will personally strap the car and make a few pulls to compare. I want to be proven wrong - this is the only way to compare and I am sure lots of viewers are completely interested also. If you don't show it says a lot.

See you tomorrow morning.

-George Kakaletris

 

This thread is not to start problems between shops it is to show why his car lost to mine with the claimed numbers by ICS. I was there with my own eyes saw his 277hp baseline pull. After a couple of adjustments the car started to wake up! I am the owner of the car this particular evo 9 MR ran and he couldnt not walk away from me considering the 9's are so much lighter and he was on 27psi to my 23.5psi. I know the 10's make more power mod to mod but heck I don't have anything other than a full tbe and a cone filter! Anyway I am going to run him again and if he walks away from me then you guys screwed up his tune and messed with his head! I can not believe a shop would want to treat a returning customer like that it is just not fair business. As for adjusting the dynos who you kidding you can mess with any type of dyno even dynojet! here is my dyno slip and mind you I have one of the highest hp evo 10's with my mods on his dyno! Thanks...

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7786/megain.jpg

 

Its in the mid 11's bet u u would live to the log the tune and see how it's running so u could copy it to use it on the other cars u tune no diggity, not only that when they did the first two pulls the car sounded like it was chocked up after the new tune it sounded possessed that had to strap the car down more...