BBK-3B - my new favorite turbo
Jan 1, 2015, 07:12 PM
#182
I disagree.
FP Made a turbo based on MHI, with over the years making small improvements.
Some of the "improvements' were misguided and they use to fail and perform - should we say underperform - compared to expectations, hopes, and intent.
CBRD for sure must have examined the FP turbos...so what?
Do you know that if you go to any car company, they have competitors cars, to benchmark against?
In F1 everybody reviews the competitions cars, and in industry everybody reads patents, and reverse engineers products.
If FP built a more sports minded product based on MHI, CBRD did the same optimizing their product based perhaps on learnings from FP and MHI.
And its a great result.
But the main main point remains: they are not at all the same. They have different shape/size of the blades, different number of blades, so where do you get the notion they are the same?
And really even talking about how these turbos came to be is outside the scope of this discussion.
We really don't care how, we care how they work and which is best for us?
Hey, we kid around when we make fun of the typing errors, but they are half truths...would you not think its "unprofessional" to in any public forum speak with mouth full of food, so nobody can understand you? What is the difference misspelling everything.
Clearly, we don't think that you really cannot spell, but we did not like what you said...because you really really do not know the truth about CBRD BBK line, as its that truth is only known to CBRD, Blouch, and maybe some other close partners. Not to you or me.
So to speculate based on some impression you got its inaccurate and its spreading rumors that are unsubstantiated. So lets be professional enthusiasts and not bash suppliers.
I like both companies, FP service is awesome as of late, and I appreciate it.
CBRD has become more responsive, and I like that, but best of all their -B for me is best stock-frame turbo for my purpose/driving style. Thank you CBRD.
Now looking at LMP/Big Frame turbo system.
Take care, and ... see if you can try the CBRD to see how well it works.
FP Made a turbo based on MHI, with over the years making small improvements.
Some of the "improvements' were misguided and they use to fail and perform - should we say underperform - compared to expectations, hopes, and intent.
CBRD for sure must have examined the FP turbos...so what?
Do you know that if you go to any car company, they have competitors cars, to benchmark against?
In F1 everybody reviews the competitions cars, and in industry everybody reads patents, and reverse engineers products.
If FP built a more sports minded product based on MHI, CBRD did the same optimizing their product based perhaps on learnings from FP and MHI.
And its a great result.
But the main main point remains: they are not at all the same. They have different shape/size of the blades, different number of blades, so where do you get the notion they are the same?
And really even talking about how these turbos came to be is outside the scope of this discussion.
We really don't care how, we care how they work and which is best for us?
Hey, we kid around when we make fun of the typing errors, but they are half truths...would you not think its "unprofessional" to in any public forum speak with mouth full of food, so nobody can understand you? What is the difference misspelling everything.
Clearly, we don't think that you really cannot spell, but we did not like what you said...because you really really do not know the truth about CBRD BBK line, as its that truth is only known to CBRD, Blouch, and maybe some other close partners. Not to you or me.
So to speculate based on some impression you got its inaccurate and its spreading rumors that are unsubstantiated. So lets be professional enthusiasts and not bash suppliers.
I like both companies, FP service is awesome as of late, and I appreciate it.
CBRD has become more responsive, and I like that, but best of all their -B for me is best stock-frame turbo for my purpose/driving style. Thank you CBRD.
Now looking at LMP/Big Frame turbo system.
Take care, and ... see if you can try the CBRD to see how well it works.
Jan 2, 2015, 10:16 PM
#183
I just swapped from a red to a BBK-B. the turbos are sooo different in wheel design and how they perform I dont know how anyone can claim one copied the other. It looks to me like each builder never even saw what the competition was doing. they are completely different beasts.
Jan 2, 2015, 10:47 PM
#184
I just swapped from a red to a BBK-B. the turbos are sooo different in wheel design and how they perform I dont know how anyone can claim one copied the other. It looks to me like each builder never even saw what the competition was doing. they are completely different beasts.
Jan 3, 2015, 12:28 AM
#185
I have mixed feelings of the two. my swap included both turbos having a non ported shroud. here is the readers digest on the but dyno on my 2.3
bbkb spools up much faster. at least in 1st, 2nd and 3rd. the surprise is in 4th and 5th the red makes way more tq at low rpms. like 40+tq at 3500 rm. the bbkb is far noisier. there is just far more air noise and it bounces the BOV far more. driving around town the BBKB is far more responsive in 1st through 3rd. but sometimes too responsive. a bit hard to regulate where the red is far more linear with throttle input. I seriously miss the quietness of the red and the tq 4th and 5th had. WOT the red feels much faster in 4th and 5th. in 1st through 3rd the BBKB feels just a tad faster. I think on a 2.0 the clear winner would be the BBKB. but for me in my setup i miss the red and wish to reinstall. problem is the red was BB and it messed with the maf counts basically giving false counts at throttle lift. just killed drivability. so my next move is speed density with switch to the infinty ecu. then i can put the red back on.
another interesting note is the BBKB is JB and the red BB yet the you could not tell from driving them. one might guess that the BBKB was ball bearing and the red PB from how they drive, before installing I compared the rotation mass of each by rolling the turbine shaft in my fingers and the BBKB is far easier to spin. the turbine and compressor wheel are made far lighter than the red components. I would estimate the red turbine weighs 200 grams and the compressor 80 grams. the bbk compressor 65 grams and the turbine 150. its a very stark difference between the two. my guess is driving around a track there woulld be no difference between the BBKB and BBKB BB.
bbkb spools up much faster. at least in 1st, 2nd and 3rd. the surprise is in 4th and 5th the red makes way more tq at low rpms. like 40+tq at 3500 rm. the bbkb is far noisier. there is just far more air noise and it bounces the BOV far more. driving around town the BBKB is far more responsive in 1st through 3rd. but sometimes too responsive. a bit hard to regulate where the red is far more linear with throttle input. I seriously miss the quietness of the red and the tq 4th and 5th had. WOT the red feels much faster in 4th and 5th. in 1st through 3rd the BBKB feels just a tad faster. I think on a 2.0 the clear winner would be the BBKB. but for me in my setup i miss the red and wish to reinstall. problem is the red was BB and it messed with the maf counts basically giving false counts at throttle lift. just killed drivability. so my next move is speed density with switch to the infinty ecu. then i can put the red back on.
another interesting note is the BBKB is JB and the red BB yet the you could not tell from driving them. one might guess that the BBKB was ball bearing and the red PB from how they drive, before installing I compared the rotation mass of each by rolling the turbine shaft in my fingers and the BBKB is far easier to spin. the turbine and compressor wheel are made far lighter than the red components. I would estimate the red turbine weighs 200 grams and the compressor 80 grams. the bbk compressor 65 grams and the turbine 150. its a very stark difference between the two. my guess is driving around a track there woulld be no difference between the BBKB and BBKB BB.
Jan 3, 2015, 10:24 AM
#186
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
I have mixed feelings of the two. my swap included both turbos having a non ported shroud. here is the readers digest on the but dyno on my 2.3
bbkb spools up much faster. at least in 1st, 2nd and 3rd. the surprise is in 4th and 5th the red makes way more tq at low rpms. like 40+tq at 3500 rm. the bbkb is far noisier. there is just far more air noise and it bounces the BOV far more. driving around town the BBKB is far more responsive in 1st through 3rd. but sometimes too responsive. a bit hard to regulate where the red is far more linear with throttle input. I seriously miss the quietness of the red and the tq 4th and 5th had. WOT the red feels much faster in 4th and 5th. in 1st through 3rd the BBKB feels just a tad faster. I think on a 2.0 the clear winner would be the BBKB. but for me in my setup i miss the red and wish to reinstall. problem is the red was BB and it messed with the maf counts basically giving false counts at throttle lift. just killed drivability. so my next move is speed density with switch to the infinty ecu. then i can put the red back on.
another interesting note is the BBKB is JB and the red BB yet the you could not tell from driving them. one might guess that the BBKB was ball bearoing and the red PB from how they drive, before installing I compared the rotation mass of each by rolling the turbine shaft in my fingers and the BBKB is far easier to spin. the turbine and compressor wheel are made far lighter than the red components. I would estimate the red turbine weighs 200 grams and the compressor 80 grams. the bbk compressor 65 grams and the turbine 150. its a very stark difference between the two. my guess is driving around a track there woulld be no difference between the BBKB and BBKB BB.
bbkb spools up much faster. at least in 1st, 2nd and 3rd. the surprise is in 4th and 5th the red makes way more tq at low rpms. like 40+tq at 3500 rm. the bbkb is far noisier. there is just far more air noise and it bounces the BOV far more. driving around town the BBKB is far more responsive in 1st through 3rd. but sometimes too responsive. a bit hard to regulate where the red is far more linear with throttle input. I seriously miss the quietness of the red and the tq 4th and 5th had. WOT the red feels much faster in 4th and 5th. in 1st through 3rd the BBKB feels just a tad faster. I think on a 2.0 the clear winner would be the BBKB. but for me in my setup i miss the red and wish to reinstall. problem is the red was BB and it messed with the maf counts basically giving false counts at throttle lift. just killed drivability. so my next move is speed density with switch to the infinty ecu. then i can put the red back on.
another interesting note is the BBKB is JB and the red BB yet the you could not tell from driving them. one might guess that the BBKB was ball bearoing and the red PB from how they drive, before installing I compared the rotation mass of each by rolling the turbine shaft in my fingers and the BBKB is far easier to spin. the turbine and compressor wheel are made far lighter than the red components. I would estimate the red turbine weighs 200 grams and the compressor 80 grams. the bbk compressor 65 grams and the turbine 150. its a very stark difference between the two. my guess is driving around a track there woulld be no difference between the BBKB and BBKB BB.
Jan 4, 2015, 10:52 PM
#188
red = 14 blade compressor 54.8mm and a 11 blade turbine 67mm.
bbk = 12 blade compressor 57mm with 11 blade 63.5mm turbine.
at low rpm exhaust energy is limited. somewhat constant. with the energy available the taller 67mm puts more turning leverage into the shaft. on the compressor side the smaller diameter compressor gives 14 pulses per rev of shaft. vs 12 for the bbk. the larger diameter comp wheels take more energy to turn. but the bbk has a smaller diameter turbine.
Jan 5, 2015, 09:18 AM
#189
Jerry
I strongly believe newer BBK-B dbb is better yet: lighter wheel assembly, better transient response, even more over responsive at low rpm!?!
So you think -B can be a good turbo on 2.0 pump fuel?
How about compared to HKS?
That is my struggle: was!
I have HKS on 2.0, and wonder if -B would be about same at low rpm?
With little more elsewhere?
On pump fuel.
I strongly believe newer BBK-B dbb is better yet: lighter wheel assembly, better transient response, even more over responsive at low rpm!?!
So you think -B can be a good turbo on 2.0 pump fuel?
How about compared to HKS?
That is my struggle: was!
I have HKS on 2.0, and wonder if -B would be about same at low rpm?
With little more elsewhere?
On pump fuel.
Jan 5, 2015, 10:21 PM
#192
Jerry
I strongly believe newer BBK-B dbb is better yet: lighter wheel assembly, better transient response, even more over responsive at low rpm!?!
So you think -B can be a good turbo on 2.0 pump fuel?
How about compared to HKS?
That is my struggle: was!
I have HKS on 2.0, and wonder if -B would be about same at low rpm?
With little more elsewhere?
On pump fuel.
I strongly believe newer BBK-B dbb is better yet: lighter wheel assembly, better transient response, even more over responsive at low rpm!?!
So you think -B can be a good turbo on 2.0 pump fuel?
How about compared to HKS?
That is my struggle: was!
I have HKS on 2.0, and wonder if -B would be about same at low rpm?
With little more elsewhere?
On pump fuel.
the HKS is nearly exact same size as a BBK. the B is quite a bit bigger. its going to loose some low end over the HKS.
Jan 5, 2015, 10:28 PM
#193
no disrespect but you dont even belong in this conversation as you have elected to leave all turbo specs sizes secret sauce from day one. no one really knows what they have or what they are ordering till they actually measure it themselves. i have told you since day one that type of game plan is poor at best but you insist on your methods. most turbo buyers are data freaks. they need to know if what they are buying is bigger or smaller than what they already have. you likely have shunned out many possible sales due to this. maybe someday you will get it.
Jan 6, 2015, 08:44 AM
#194
no disrespect but you dont even belong in this conversation as you have elected to leave all turbo specs sizes secret sauce from day one. no one really knows what they have or what they are ordering till they actually measure it themselves. i have told you since day one that type of game plan is poor at best but you insist on your methods. most turbo buyers are data freaks. they need to know if what they are buying is bigger or smaller than what they already have. you likely have shunned out many possible sales due to this. maybe someday you will get it.
But seeing as it is a CBRD product- I think we are entitled to comment in the thread-
cb
