Graphic's Evo IX on FiTronic Flex Fuel Program for the Stock ECU
Apr 6, 2015, 08:25 PM
#16
Alright so Tom just so Im clear right now theres no way to sell these kits "stand alone" to people that self tune but you guys will set up the "blending" areas. Does that mean that part of the map will not exist when we pull the rom? IE we will not have the correct XML Definition file? I guess Im abit lost on how thats going to work. I dont mind paying you guys a small fee for blending the maps I just want to be able to change this in the future. So would you just keep us on a list so when it is released "Publicly" we will be able to do it. I just need to know the procedure... I have a IX so the flex fuel patch is not an option on my car and I do not want to switch to stand alone. But I need full control over my ecu in the future when I decide to goto a larger turbo, or change injectors etc.
Apr 7, 2015, 07:42 AM
#17
Alright so Tom just so Im clear right now theres no way to sell these kits "stand alone" to people that self tune but you guys will set up the "blending" areas. Does that mean that part of the map will not exist when we pull the rom? IE we will not have the correct XML Definition file? I guess Im abit lost on how thats going to work. I dont mind paying you guys a small fee for blending the maps I just want to be able to change this in the future. So would you just keep us on a list so when it is released "Publicly" we will be able to do it. I just need to know the procedure... I have a IX so the flex fuel patch is not an option on my car and I do not want to switch to stand alone. But I need full control over my ecu in the future when I decide to goto a larger turbo, or change injectors etc.
For a setup like this, its best to have the tuner do everything. If you are a do it yourself and tune your own car then do the freefuel stuff at your own risk.
This is just for someone who wants something ready out of the box that is stable and reliable with lots of customer support.
When you change to larger injectors & turbo you need a retune no matter what though. Different injectors have different flow rates, which alter both injector size and fuel map values.
You will still be able to access your maps, scaling, etc. All the normal stuff will still be there, but if you want to adjust the actual flex fuel blending tables I'll have to do that.
Once you're tuned on it, and you change something its not going to be the same price again later. For example, my return customers at minimum always receive 50-100$ discounts even if they haven't had a tune since 2 yrs. I tune cars and guys don't return for 2 yrs and run the tune for 2 yrs. Not something I recommend personally, but if the tunes in check and no detonation I suppose you can go as long as you want.
What I was implying before, was that if a customer really wants his fuel and timing map on his car and i approve the maps. (if your maps are not mapped good, i wont approve it). They must make sense, and have proper curves that I know are proper, and not random changes and blocky, etc.
If a good tuner comes to me and wants this, and his maps are nice, we will just blend his existing maps with the program. He can still call it his own tune, (because it is).
Hope that makes sense.
Apr 12, 2015, 01:17 AM
#19
Public can not see the ethanol tables in the rom. The xml you will be supplied will be a custom XML for the end user. You wont get to see the tables I am tuning.
For a setup like this, its best to have the tuner do everything. If you are a do it yourself and tune your own car then do the freefuel stuff at your own risk.
This is just for someone who wants something ready out of the box that is stable and reliable with lots of customer support.
When you change to larger injectors & turbo you need a retune no matter what though. Different injectors have different flow rates, which alter both injector size and fuel map values.
You will still be able to access your maps, scaling, etc. All the normal stuff will still be there, but if you want to adjust the actual flex fuel blending tables I'll have to do that.
Once you're tuned on it, and you change something its not going to be the same price again later. For example, my return customers at minimum always receive 50-100$ discounts even if they haven't had a tune since 2 yrs. I tune cars and guys don't return for 2 yrs and run the tune for 2 yrs. Not something I recommend personally, but if the tunes in check and no detonation I suppose you can go as long as you want.
What I was implying before, was that if a customer really wants his fuel and timing map on his car and i approve the maps. (if your maps are not mapped good, i wont approve it). They must make sense, and have proper curves that I know are proper, and not random changes and blocky, etc.
If a good tuner comes to me and wants this, and his maps are nice, we will just blend his existing maps with the program. He can still call it his own tune, (because it is).
Hope that makes sense.
For a setup like this, its best to have the tuner do everything. If you are a do it yourself and tune your own car then do the freefuel stuff at your own risk.
This is just for someone who wants something ready out of the box that is stable and reliable with lots of customer support.
When you change to larger injectors & turbo you need a retune no matter what though. Different injectors have different flow rates, which alter both injector size and fuel map values.
You will still be able to access your maps, scaling, etc. All the normal stuff will still be there, but if you want to adjust the actual flex fuel blending tables I'll have to do that.
Once you're tuned on it, and you change something its not going to be the same price again later. For example, my return customers at minimum always receive 50-100$ discounts even if they haven't had a tune since 2 yrs. I tune cars and guys don't return for 2 yrs and run the tune for 2 yrs. Not something I recommend personally, but if the tunes in check and no detonation I suppose you can go as long as you want.
What I was implying before, was that if a customer really wants his fuel and timing map on his car and i approve the maps. (if your maps are not mapped good, i wont approve it). They must make sense, and have proper curves that I know are proper, and not random changes and blocky, etc.
If a good tuner comes to me and wants this, and his maps are nice, we will just blend his existing maps with the program. He can still call it his own tune, (because it is).
Hope that makes sense.
I hope this message is not perceived in a negative way that is not my intent. Thanks.
Apr 12, 2015, 04:17 PM
#23
Evolving Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I started reading this thread I was excited to see something like this coming out for us stock ecu guys. Then the bomb dropped, and I was instantly disappointed. a lot of the time I go off of my tuners thoughts, experience, and recommendation with a product and there are a lot of people on here that do that. That being said I doubt many tuners are going to recommend a product they don't know/ can't fix if something is wrong. And if they do then there is the "approval fee" I understand this is a way for you to make money but why single out people who don't want to use your tunes?
Apr 12, 2015, 05:27 PM
#24
I own two Evos, one has been using this control for ~3 years since first prototype, another about a year and half.
The controller/ROM work flawlessly, I DD my Evos, one is sorted backroad car (has been tracked), another is sorted TA/track car.
The Controller and Display, wiring harness, ROM, are propriatery designs/builds by industry professionals who by day apply their skills to design hardware and software for perhaps largest "Industrial High-End Electronic/Mechatronic" equipment, used by all industries wether for control, automation, and more.
It took 4+ years to design, test, improve, optimize, the design specifications of hardware and software. To manufacture something you need to then engage contract manufacturing partners in EU who require minimum batch size to offer volume discount: this engineering team fronted the initial investment, to start the hardware build.
Then the team trained a few individuals, Tom being one of the trained experts.
So as much as the FiTronic team is enthusiasts willing, ready, to share: would you think it would be fair to recup at least some cost associated with development and build?
In addition, as always an uninformed person with little no no experience is likely to produce at best a so-so E85 tune: you cannot recognize on E85 MBT easily, and there is a lot more.
So having average-Joe tune his/her flex fuel car frankly is against their best interest.
It's not by chance that only handful of reputable tuners have been offered to distribute the product: to protect all from less experienced, those who's tunes you end up correcting!
In summary, seems that it's easier to come to terms with spending money on hard parts such as big turbo or large wheels, but more difficult for some to invest into where most difference is experienced- perfect tune and worry free flexibility when running E85 and pump fuel alternativeLy.
I am grateful to FiTronic for the pleasure and opportunity to use the system, and hope many more come to appreciate the value proposition.
And reliability and safety features at OEM levels thanks to core values of the builders.
The controller/ROM work flawlessly, I DD my Evos, one is sorted backroad car (has been tracked), another is sorted TA/track car.
The Controller and Display, wiring harness, ROM, are propriatery designs/builds by industry professionals who by day apply their skills to design hardware and software for perhaps largest "Industrial High-End Electronic/Mechatronic" equipment, used by all industries wether for control, automation, and more.
It took 4+ years to design, test, improve, optimize, the design specifications of hardware and software. To manufacture something you need to then engage contract manufacturing partners in EU who require minimum batch size to offer volume discount: this engineering team fronted the initial investment, to start the hardware build.
Then the team trained a few individuals, Tom being one of the trained experts.
So as much as the FiTronic team is enthusiasts willing, ready, to share: would you think it would be fair to recup at least some cost associated with development and build?
In addition, as always an uninformed person with little no no experience is likely to produce at best a so-so E85 tune: you cannot recognize on E85 MBT easily, and there is a lot more.
So having average-Joe tune his/her flex fuel car frankly is against their best interest.
It's not by chance that only handful of reputable tuners have been offered to distribute the product: to protect all from less experienced, those who's tunes you end up correcting!
In summary, seems that it's easier to come to terms with spending money on hard parts such as big turbo or large wheels, but more difficult for some to invest into where most difference is experienced- perfect tune and worry free flexibility when running E85 and pump fuel alternativeLy.
I am grateful to FiTronic for the pleasure and opportunity to use the system, and hope many more come to appreciate the value proposition.
And reliability and safety features at OEM levels thanks to core values of the builders.
Apr 12, 2015, 06:55 PM
#25
^^^^ Can not agree more. Thank You for sharing this great product with everyone. I too am very interested and will contact you once i get my car back from the shop. So lucky this is even compatible with our stock ecu!!!
Apr 12, 2015, 07:33 PM
#26
I own two Evos, one has been using this control for ~3 years since first prototype, another about a year and half.
The controller/ROM work flawlessly, I DD my Evos, one is sorted backroad car (has been tracked), another is sorted TA/track car.
The Controller and Display, wiring harness, ROM, are propriatery designs/builds by industry professionals who by day apply their skills to design hardware and software for perhaps largest "Industrial High-End Electronic/Mechatronic" equipment, used by all industries wether for control, automation, and more.
It took 4+ years to design, test, improve, optimize, the design specifications of hardware and software. To manufacture something you need to then engage contract manufacturing partners in EU who require minimum batch size to offer volume discount: this engineering team fronted the initial investment, to start the hardware build.
Then the team trained a few individuals, Tom being one of the trained experts.
So as much as the FiTronic team is enthusiasts willing, ready, to share: would you think it would be fair to recup at least some cost associated with development and build?
In addition, as always an uninformed person with little no no experience is likely to produce at best a so-so E85 tune: you cannot recognize on E85 MBT easily, and there is a lot more.
So having average-Joe tune his/her flex fuel car frankly is against their best interest.
It's not by chance that only handful of reputable tuners have been offered to distribute the product: to protect all from less experienced, those who's tunes you end up correcting!
In summary, seems that it's easier to come to terms with spending money on hard parts such as big turbo or large wheels, but more difficult for some to invest into where most difference is experienced- perfect tune and worry free flexibility when running E85 and pump fuel alternativeLy.
I am grateful to FiTronic for the pleasure and opportunity to use the system, and hope many more come to appreciate the value proposition.
And reliability and safety features at OEM levels thanks to core values of the builders.
The controller/ROM work flawlessly, I DD my Evos, one is sorted backroad car (has been tracked), another is sorted TA/track car.
The Controller and Display, wiring harness, ROM, are propriatery designs/builds by industry professionals who by day apply their skills to design hardware and software for perhaps largest "Industrial High-End Electronic/Mechatronic" equipment, used by all industries wether for control, automation, and more.
It took 4+ years to design, test, improve, optimize, the design specifications of hardware and software. To manufacture something you need to then engage contract manufacturing partners in EU who require minimum batch size to offer volume discount: this engineering team fronted the initial investment, to start the hardware build.
Then the team trained a few individuals, Tom being one of the trained experts.
So as much as the FiTronic team is enthusiasts willing, ready, to share: would you think it would be fair to recup at least some cost associated with development and build?
In addition, as always an uninformed person with little no no experience is likely to produce at best a so-so E85 tune: you cannot recognize on E85 MBT easily, and there is a lot more.
So having average-Joe tune his/her flex fuel car frankly is against their best interest.
It's not by chance that only handful of reputable tuners have been offered to distribute the product: to protect all from less experienced, those who's tunes you end up correcting!
In summary, seems that it's easier to come to terms with spending money on hard parts such as big turbo or large wheels, but more difficult for some to invest into where most difference is experienced- perfect tune and worry free flexibility when running E85 and pump fuel alternativeLy.
I am grateful to FiTronic for the pleasure and opportunity to use the system, and hope many more come to appreciate the value proposition.
And reliability and safety features at OEM levels thanks to core values of the builders.
Apr 12, 2015, 11:54 PM
#27
Jerry,
Of course I respect all your inputs and opinions.
Including this one.
I do not absolutely understand the logic behind wishing bad, nor any sort of negative opinion?
Guys built an electronic product.
They sell it with ROM.
Perhaps a little like EcuTek, to protect themselves, they rear/write protect the product.
Nothing unusual here.
Product works great.
Price is OK, not cheap, but given the 20-30% power boost on E85 and flexibility, its actually really great value. Not to mention MUT display showing all ECU signal values..now it starts being a really cool product with datalogging capability.
So what's not to like?
I am delighted, and hope they make similar product(s) for GTR and Porsche, would love the flexibility at reasonable cost, that their product offers.
Of course I respect all your inputs and opinions.
Including this one.
I do not absolutely understand the logic behind wishing bad, nor any sort of negative opinion?
Guys built an electronic product.
They sell it with ROM.
Perhaps a little like EcuTek, to protect themselves, they rear/write protect the product.
Nothing unusual here.
Product works great.
Price is OK, not cheap, but given the 20-30% power boost on E85 and flexibility, its actually really great value. Not to mention MUT display showing all ECU signal values..now it starts being a really cool product with datalogging capability.
So what's not to like?
I am delighted, and hope they make similar product(s) for GTR and Porsche, would love the flexibility at reasonable cost, that their product offers.
Apr 13, 2015, 12:44 AM
#28
Jerry,
Of course I respect all your inputs and opinions.
Including this one.
I do not absolutely understand the logic behind wishing bad, nor any sort of negative opinion?
Guys built an electronic product.
They sell it with ROM.
Perhaps a little like EcuTek, to protect themselves, they rear/write protect the product.
Nothing unusual here.
Product works great.
Price is OK, not cheap, but given the 20-30% power boost on E85 and flexibility, its actually really great value. Not to mention MUT display showing all ECU signal values..now it starts being a really cool product with datalogging capability.
So what's not to like?
I am delighted, and hope they make similar product(s) for GTR and Porsche, would love the flexibility at reasonable cost, that their product offers.
Of course I respect all your inputs and opinions.
Including this one.
I do not absolutely understand the logic behind wishing bad, nor any sort of negative opinion?
Guys built an electronic product.
They sell it with ROM.
Perhaps a little like EcuTek, to protect themselves, they rear/write protect the product.
Nothing unusual here.
Product works great.
Price is OK, not cheap, but given the 20-30% power boost on E85 and flexibility, its actually really great value. Not to mention MUT display showing all ECU signal values..now it starts being a really cool product with datalogging capability.
So what's not to like?
I am delighted, and hope they make similar product(s) for GTR and Porsche, would love the flexibility at reasonable cost, that their product offers.
Last edited by codgi; Apr 13, 2015 at 12:48 AM.
Apr 13, 2015, 06:12 AM
#29
How'd the bold work out for EcuTek in the long run? The way to get the investment back is to charge the correct price for the unit up front and get back your money over time with sales. Trying to lock this to a few folks isn't going to get that money back quickly and when you think about it any shop/tuner that isn't in the initial roll out isn't going to recommend this to their clients since they can't make anything off of it. So you either end up extending it further to those shops/tuners or you miss a lot of the market.
Apr 13, 2015, 09:45 AM
#30
I didn't say anything about any kind of approval fee. Not sure how someone read my response like that. That would be ridiculous in itself.
I said I wont put maps I personally don't approve or like, meaning if its blocky and looks bad, I wont allow it used if I have anything to do with the tune on that car. If timing isn't done properly, (scrambled going up and down) we wont allow it. Its for the safety of the customer and the product name itself. So If somethings wrong with the tune, we will point it out and teach you how to correct your mistakes. (If you are really against being approved by me then you can sign off and take full responsibility and you can run whatever style maps you want). I for one am not a fan of limiting or controlling things like this, but I also don't want to see someone with bad maps that I see mistakes and just let them go with it. I like teaching the person their mistakes, not just ignoring them. Over the years I've taught allot of my customers how to tune and have lost a lot of customers due to the fact they now tune their own vehicles. As long as I get customers I am happy, I don't care if I taught someone and they became my competition. I am happy with the traffic I'm receiving now, and there's never a such thing as "to much competition". If someone is knowledgeable enough to pickup what im throwing at them, they deserve to profit as I do with the same technique if that's what they choose to do so for a career or part time job.
I am well aware there are reputable name tuners who have done bad jobs and I have every single name on my desktop in folders for proof and the roms they produced. Also keep in mind, sometimes maps don't look that great because of the car being dyno tuned and being on a limited time constraint, and the fact they are using laptops on their lap with minimal room when mapping, so its not going to be super smooth like cars I tune remote on my 24" lcd desktop with full size keyboard and mouse. It takes me 2x longer to smooth on a laptop in the car then on my desktop using the motion pad & laptop keypad. Most the tunes I see I don't like from pro's still follow the proper timing curves per say, but are just very blocky and unsmooth (due to limited time, or just environment being mapped in general). It doesn't mean its a "dangerous" tune if its blocked, Its just a personal preference of mine to have smooth maps whenever possible.
We also didn't expect self tuners to like the product. We may open it up, but not at this time currently.
While there's a lot of people who dislike it due to this fact and I can obviously understand that, as if I was in that situation I would hate it also, but we want to offer it first to those who solely rely on others to tune their cars, (and there's a lot of them).
In time we will make a more economical version of the kit and also open it up to other tuners, or even make a public version. For now if you want that luxury, then you must go to the free fuel thread and learn how to use that patch.
Not much more I can say really. The Evo ECU is very limited to what we can and cant do as far as protecting our work. Once the XML is released to the public, it will allow anyone to share it and we will lose all our ability to control the product.
The main reason its being sold the way it is right now, is specifically due to the fact its an open project the second the actual XML is set free to the public.
Not sure really how else to explain it. You can still alter your tune, just not the ethanol blending tables. We need to keep some content to ourselves so people don't profit off our hard work for now.
I really cant explain it any differently. For those who don't like it or wont be able to use it due to this fact I apologize. For those who still want to, and can see im trying to do whatever I can possible by giving the other tuner power without actually releasing the XML, then feel free to suggest something where we can still offer it, but not give out the actual XML (heart of the operation).
I said I wont put maps I personally don't approve or like, meaning if its blocky and looks bad, I wont allow it used if I have anything to do with the tune on that car. If timing isn't done properly, (scrambled going up and down) we wont allow it. Its for the safety of the customer and the product name itself. So If somethings wrong with the tune, we will point it out and teach you how to correct your mistakes. (If you are really against being approved by me then you can sign off and take full responsibility and you can run whatever style maps you want). I for one am not a fan of limiting or controlling things like this, but I also don't want to see someone with bad maps that I see mistakes and just let them go with it. I like teaching the person their mistakes, not just ignoring them. Over the years I've taught allot of my customers how to tune and have lost a lot of customers due to the fact they now tune their own vehicles. As long as I get customers I am happy, I don't care if I taught someone and they became my competition. I am happy with the traffic I'm receiving now, and there's never a such thing as "to much competition". If someone is knowledgeable enough to pickup what im throwing at them, they deserve to profit as I do with the same technique if that's what they choose to do so for a career or part time job.
I am well aware there are reputable name tuners who have done bad jobs and I have every single name on my desktop in folders for proof and the roms they produced. Also keep in mind, sometimes maps don't look that great because of the car being dyno tuned and being on a limited time constraint, and the fact they are using laptops on their lap with minimal room when mapping, so its not going to be super smooth like cars I tune remote on my 24" lcd desktop with full size keyboard and mouse. It takes me 2x longer to smooth on a laptop in the car then on my desktop using the motion pad & laptop keypad. Most the tunes I see I don't like from pro's still follow the proper timing curves per say, but are just very blocky and unsmooth (due to limited time, or just environment being mapped in general). It doesn't mean its a "dangerous" tune if its blocked, Its just a personal preference of mine to have smooth maps whenever possible.
We also didn't expect self tuners to like the product. We may open it up, but not at this time currently.
While there's a lot of people who dislike it due to this fact and I can obviously understand that, as if I was in that situation I would hate it also, but we want to offer it first to those who solely rely on others to tune their cars, (and there's a lot of them).
In time we will make a more economical version of the kit and also open it up to other tuners, or even make a public version. For now if you want that luxury, then you must go to the free fuel thread and learn how to use that patch.
Not much more I can say really. The Evo ECU is very limited to what we can and cant do as far as protecting our work. Once the XML is released to the public, it will allow anyone to share it and we will lose all our ability to control the product.
The main reason its being sold the way it is right now, is specifically due to the fact its an open project the second the actual XML is set free to the public.
Not sure really how else to explain it. You can still alter your tune, just not the ethanol blending tables. We need to keep some content to ourselves so people don't profit off our hard work for now.
I really cant explain it any differently. For those who don't like it or wont be able to use it due to this fact I apologize. For those who still want to, and can see im trying to do whatever I can possible by giving the other tuner power without actually releasing the XML, then feel free to suggest something where we can still offer it, but not give out the actual XML (heart of the operation).