I just finished taking a ride in my friends 05' MR w/ an autronic plug and play, and I confirmed what I already knew. People having problems with their cold start & partial throttle running stand alones either have ****ty tuners or are running inferior equipement. The car just got off the dyno last weekend, so the tune wasn't 100% perfect, but after we spent about 15 mins tuning the partial throttle and all the kinks were taken out. While I can't say it feels totally stock, it is still a civilized street car.

Poor cold starts are not indicative of stand alones, my civic runs 1600 cc bosch injectors, and fires up everytime on the first try w/ motec. idles at 1000 rpm w/o an idle control motor @ 14.7 a/f.

 

Groovytang,

I don't know who you are, don't care. I do know you made this same point on another thread on EVOM about our exhaust, now I find out you don't own one. I will tell you the same thing here that I did on the other thread though. IF OUR EXHAUST FELL OFF AN EVO THEN IT WAS INSTALLED WRONG! Plain and simple. We have had a few rattles and such over the last 2 years we have been building them as the down pipe is a real PITA to get right. We have sent the last 50+ systems (in less than 2 months) our of here with a newly designed downpipe that is flanged on both ends. This has completely eliminated any problems and the exhaust is what I have to admit, a PERFECT piece of work. I have also stood behind any system complaints I got from anyone that has ever bought one from us and corrected or replaced each and every one. This would be the same respect/service you would get from us on an exhaust or a stand alone engine management.

As for why we offer the AFC or the Flash in the Stage 1 mods, that is pretty darn easy to figure out. You don't need a $2400 engine management to control $1350 worth of modifications. The AFC and Flash has worked out great for us and has many of our guys running in the high 11's. Suggesting to a customer that he needs a complete stand alone as one of his first modifications would be nothing short of "evil".

Now, if a customer calls and wants to buy Stages 1-4 all at once it is something that will get discussed with him as the benefits of it are pretty high at that point.

The other question you had was about the $500 difference in cost between the EMS and the Exede. I don't know anything about the Exede or what the end user can do with it. One someone enlightens me maybe I can give you some points I think are better.

Shiv,

What can be done by the owner of the Exede? Datalogging? Knock and AFR monitoring? Can the owner change all the same parameters that you can? Can it be converted to speed density? Timing and AFR changes possible for air temps/water temps? Two step control and anti-lag? How many pounds of boost can it be mapped up to? Rev limits, can they be changed? What is the largest injector you have been able to control perfectly with it for great driveability?

Once SHIV answers those questions I can let you know why the difference in price, maybe the EMS doesn't offer anything else. I am asking for Shiv's input as he obviously knows the most about the system.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

Groovytang,

Buschur parts rock!!

 

Something that Dave fails to mention is the consistant performancxe advantage that his exhuast systems have over other similar systems. I have tested just about every possible kind of exhuast system on evos and the Buschur cocnsistantly make the more whp - period. I run a off the shelf Buschur 3" cat back exhuast on my 667 whp evo and I have had zero problems. I run it b/c its the lightest on the market, it makes the most power and it sounds the best. The fact that it was also the least expensive and made in USA were nice additional features but not the # 1 resons to buy.

 

David Buschur, You just lost a customer. I don't know how you deal with potential customers, but your attitude is bad business.. even online.

"i don't know who you are, don't care"

Back to the topic on hand, Why is stage 4 (highly modified) still using a SAFC? Wouldn't your support of the AEM EMS make it all worthwhile?

 

Do you know how much of a hp difference you got from using Buschur compared to HKS or Greddy?

 

Actually, the first USDM Evo to run 10's via an RnR Racing turbo kit is located in Northern California. Coincedentally, it is running an Autronics EMS.

 

Dude you have NO CLUE, Do you actually think he cares if he lost your business. Heck i have his stage 4 and am HAPPY as could be. His service is top notch i assure you, but when you go around making stupid posts about his products, how do you think he should treat you?

 

Couldn't say it any better Mauricio.

 

I've asked you this several times before, but you have never answered. Are you certain that it really slides between the two tables in normal operation?

The standard mode of operation on a DSM is to be pegged on the high octane table at all times unless you really messed up and put in some 89 octane fuel or are knocking all the time. Basically the ECU reads both tables, and then selects a value between the those two values (a window, if you will) for fuel and timing advance based on the value of the octane number. The octane value (what Todd Day called it beck when he disassembled the ECU's code back in the mid 90s) really shouldn't and doesn't move at all if your car is tuned well. At least on a DSM.

I'm just surprised to hear you say that the operation on an Evo is different since the systems seem so similar. Have you datalogged the change in timing advance or injector pulsewidth when you think the octane value has changed? For that matter, have you datalogged the octane value? That is the easiest way to tell.

 

Uhhh, no it isn't, and you know it. At least I hope that you do! Though the factory tables may only go up to 24psi, however, the tables are only used for enrichment. The ECU uses a calculation based on mass airflow to get a base injector pulsewidth. And that works for ANY boost level, not just 0 to 24psi!

The enrichment table values (what you adjust when the ECU is reflashed) are added to the base calculated number. The ECU simply uses the maximum table value for that particular RPM for any boost level that exceeds the maximum. Chances are that if you are already at 24psi, but run a max boost of 30psi, you are going all the way up to 30psi. This method of tuning actually works incredibly well.

An AEM'ed car with a 2 bar map sensor running 40psi would flatline the IPW once you hit 14.7psi. That would blow stuff up for sure. That is not at all akin to a reflash of the stock enrichment tables and what happens above 24psi. So WTF are you talking about?

Incidentally, the DSM ECU hackers have finally extended this table to airflow/rev (boost) levels higher than the stock maps allow, though. Pretty cool stuff.

 

Groovytang,

Sorry, you took that "I don't know who you are nd don't care" the wrong way. What I meant by it was I don't care if you have an EVO, are in high school or are a child molestor, as other guys on here were referring to you. I meant it as I was addressing your questions regardless of who you were, it was meant completely differently than the way you took it.

Also, if you read the post I alredy typed you can see the answer to the AFC vs. EMS for Stage 4.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

I appreciate your numbers Al but dyno numbers don't qualify the car for any kind of real competition however. All around performance is key and a drag tune will not last for a 30 minute session on a road course and skid pad numbers have no relation to dyno numbers. If I wanted to pull 650-700 whp out of my car I could but its not practical for extended periods of track racing and Im not super worried about straight line performance.

 

ShapeGSX writes...
The load mapping on the EVO extends to about 1.5 bar. Above this load, there is no mapping resolution left. In other words, you cannot dictate what fuel and timing values you want the ECU to provide. Since load calculations are MAF based, it not exactly like running a MAP sensor in a stand-alone to max voltage. But it's close. That was my point.

A stand-alone equipped car running 40psi with a 2bar map sensor can be tuned to not blow up. Simply set MAP sensor failure voltage at 5v and default voltage to 5 volts. Then tune fuel and timing at the max load point to whatever is needed to provide adequate hp on the dyno. Like mapping a stock ECU to 30psi, it works on the dyno and under boost conditions but it is far from ideal.

Dave B writes...
In current form, the XEDE offers datalogging, although it is quite limited. Being a interceptor it can only log offsets, not absolute numbers. Even in v3 which we're about to release, it cannot log absolute ignition advance or IDC numbers. It will only be able to log MAF, AFR, timing offset, knock and RPM.

The user can change every single parameter that I can with the expect of the knock adjust table. Although they can turn that feature off if they decide to do so. Yes, the XEDE can be converted into speed density if one were to feel that is the way to go. The MAF can actually be removed and the XEDE can be mapped to generate its own MAF waveform from scratch using RPM and MAP as the two inputs. Temp compensates are dictated by the factory ECU, not the XEDE. The XEDE can be mapped to whatever boost is possible given the flow limitation of the MAF (factory of aftermarket). In the case of the factory MAF, this is somewhere around 35psi of boost. Rev limits cannot be raise with the XEDE, only lowered. We raise rev limits and do injector scaling through the flash of the ECU which seems to be cleanest way to make such big adjustments. We've run 850cc injectors with XEDEs although idle does loose a bit of stability. v3 firmware has closed loop fuel control and will solve this issue with bigger injectors. Currently, we run up to 720cc injectors without any noticeable drivability issues.

Regards,
Shiv

 

I believe the dyno numbers are relative, this is a performance oriented forum and we are talking about tuning.

The difference between a road race tune and a drag race tune, to me, aren't too much different. I don't know why everyone seems to think a drag race tune is that much on the edge. Maybe when you are talking top fuel it is, in the cases of most of us though it is not.

I don't tune any of the cars here so that they are on the edge and will only last a hand full of passes. We have raced an entire year without any damage to our drag engines.

What you are talking about is AFR's and timing numbers. Yes, there are guys running their engines at 13:1 AFR's and timing right on the edge. I don't believe in doing it myself. The reason is they don't last. I don't build an engine for a car just to tune it on the edge and then have to turn around and do it again. An example would be if something in one of our drag cars breaks we simply load it up and go home, working on the cars suck, especially at the track.

Tune them all to stay together, none of us are winning points for number one qualifier.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com