I'm glad your learning Al. Remember when you got those TEC-2 maps from me a couple years ago. Is that how you collaborate? Asking others like Jermaine R. to play the role of a problem-riddled customer so i give them maps for them to forward to you?

Shiv

 

My tuner is Scot Gray, yes the owner of the '94 Eclipse that placed 3rd in the Ultimate Street Car Challenge. He works with Roadrace Engineering as well and his tuning abilities are simply amazing.

 

I can vouch for this statement too.

 

Scott has been using the EMS for a long time I hear he is pretty damn good. Matter of fact he has done some tuning on Robert Fuller's Buschur Racing sponsored EVO.

Good points Al, thanks for the input.

Bad points Shiv, get off your high horse.

Speaking of high horses. Just out of curiousity, as this kept me up last night Shiv. If you are the world's greatest tuner and hate to see people waste money going from one thing to another....why don't you just re-tune these standalone's that people are bringing to you and save them money? Instead you keep "upgrading" (as you would want to think of it) to your Xede, that makes no sense at all to me. I am not bashing....I am asking. You obviously have the talent, you keep telling all of us you do, why not save them all the money and tune the cars with what they have?

Maybe a piggyback is the only way YOU can make a car have great driveability, detonation protection and cold start characteristics?

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

why would you need support once it is installed ? if it is installed and tuned correctly then you should not have to touch it ?

or am i being daft...?????

 

adnyjd,

If you were to never touch the car again or modify it then you very well may never need any support. In the car of cold start, you may have the car tuned at a shop in 70 degree weather, car starts great. When winter comes and the temps drop there is going to be a good chance the car needs some fine tuning. There are other times you might need help, switching to another map for race gas, upgrading more parts on the car, changing injectors etc.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

Just want to post so I can keep up with whats going on. Very interesting thread.

 

Dave,
While I'm strangely flattered that the thought of me keeps you up at night, I'm a little dissappointed by your comments. Whether I am or not the worlds greatest tuner (never said I was-- and i am certainly not), it is abundantly clear that stand-alones don't quite cut it for most people, regardless of who tunes it. Remember Dave, I've been tuning stand-alones long before you ever punched a button on a S-AFC I've witness the trends that people go though when they first get their stand-alone, to 6 months later to 1 year later when they try to sell their car or retrofit a reflash or a piggy-back. Heck, even your buddy Al did that a couple years ago on his Suburu because, according to him, he couldn't get the TEC-2 to idle right I've sold a few hundred stand-alone computers for Subarus since 1999. We did our best to make they easy to install and easy to live with. We even included a bolt-on crank trigger, a parallel harness (so the stock computer would still control all the OBD-II stuff, idle air control motor, fuel pump relay, etc,.) Installation of the system took a few hours and it came pre-loaded with a map spefically calibrated for the mods the car had (basically with a turbo or without). People had good sucess with them on the strip without ever having to tune them (Al comes to mind) but spending hours discussing cold start tuning, voltage compensations for different injector types, decell triggering, knock sensor calibrations and other parameters that are influenced by car-to-car variance and even minor differences in set-up wasn't fair to the customer. Most people just want to get in a car and drive it and not worry about slight fluctuations in octane, climate/altitude changes, and random driveability quirks.

Of course, drivability and adaptability to climate changes isn't the only thing that is sacrificed when stand-alones are concerned. You entire on-board diagnostic system gets canned the minute you install a stand-alone. It is then replaced by a painfully simple diagnostic system that tells you when sensor voltages are out of range. If I had a dollar for every time an OBD-II code alerted me of something before something really annoying happened, I could buy myself one of them "kick ***" HKS V Pros

Regards,
shiv

 

Thanks !

 

Here we go, round 9 in the WTC(world tuner commission) championship of the world To each his own. All I know is that being a dealer tech, I was sent to a 4 day OBDII courses taught by Ford themselves and the first thing that we got to see was a printed version of the codes, algorythims, and maps that entail what a stock ECU consists of (before anyone starts to flame I will remind you that most ECU's of any brand work almost identically). This was 8 binders each consisting of 3000 + pages full of odd codes and numbers. So in total it was about 24,000 pages of tunning built into a stock ECU. I dont care what EMS is used or who tunes it , there is no comparison to the programming that a stock ECU entails. This of course is not just for pure WHP so it does include emmmisions, driveability, trouble codes, diagnostics, etc.. All in all there is NO more advanced EMS than the one that comes in the car to begin with. For high numbers and pure racing I do agree that a standalone is the only way top go, different for a street vehicle. My car runs the flash, good enough for me.

Gil-superz

 

Not sure how old you are Shiv, just keep in mind that I have been tuning since 1989 on the 4g63's, that's a lot of AFC's ago.

Thanks for the long narrative about Al again. It's great to keep learning all the information I didn't ask about.

Bottom line was, again, why don't you just tune the customers car with his standalone while he is there rather than selling him on yet another upgrade (Xede)?

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

Shiv with all due respect and not intended in any manner as an attack or insult - I would suggest you do a litle research on Mr. Buschur before you start making comments like this one. Here is a link to some info on his long and successful career. http://www.buschurracing.com/biography3.html

 

I'm glad this hasn't gotten heated, as even with the "debates" going on there is good information to me had.

You guys are getting to witness the pros and cons as we see it I guess.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

Shiv - these comments are hardly relevant to the instant topics - but since you metioned them, I want to set the record staight

I had your TEC II set up on my stock block US WRX engine and after much trials and learning, it actually ran fairly decently

OF course it was my first stand alone so it took a long time to tune - BUT - it was a good education in this field of tuning. The TEC II is a great starter ecu as its fairly basic and staightforward.

When I elected to swap to a full JDM C-SPEC STI 2.0 l with varaiable valve timing the TEC II was not capable to run the AVCS system - so I decided to go to the stock ecu with a piggy back

Sadly - I discovered that the stock MAF sensor was having a fit from the turbulence created by my custom Gt30 turbo compressor wheel - it was impossible to get the car to work with the stock MAF and that giant turbo wheel

The solution was a LINK plug n play ecu - speed desnity - which was without a doubt outstanding

It did not have the AVCS system - BUT it did a decent enough job to win me a few races and titles going a best of 11.88 @ 124 which was a US 2.0 L suby record for some time

Thanks for reminding me of the good ole days !

 

OK how about straight challenge !

I will provide a stock 05 RS to a tuner, he can install his EMS of choice and i will get the results checked on a dyno, I'll drive the car for 4 weeks do another dyno run and return the EMS to the tuner, then get the second EMS installed and do the same thing then publish the results here. I dont have an axe to grind and have not spoken to either tuner before.
Are you up for it ?

Andy