From my perspective (being a fairly recent EVO owner) this has been a very interesting thread. If I read things correctly, it sounds to me like the most important thing is not "piggy-back is better than stand-alone" or vice versa, but what it is you want it to be better for. So far, I'm hearing (above the noise level):


Professional Motorsport:
Stand-Alone is the better performing solution, mostly due to ability to get the perfect tune for a specific situation at the track (number of parameters, etc.). Easy access to a professional tuner is required.

Weekend Warrior:
Piggy-back is the way to go, because you maintain all that daily-use cleverness/adaptability mitsu built into the OEM ECU, but you can tune to the specific car rather than having to live with the tune for the worst common denominator. No stand-by tuner staff required.


I'd wager that 99% of the driving done by the people on this board does not take place on a race track. For myself I logged maybe 1k miles racing last year, vs. 10,000+ on public roads, and given that, I know which solution looks like the better choice for me. As much as I'm into tuning my car like everybody else here, I think for most a standalone falls into the same category as R-compound tires: great for a trailer queen, waste of money for a daily driver. The discussion may be more focused, if people compare the various options for specific applications...?

 

Shiv,

I think if a guy spent $2400 on a standalone and can tune it he can make the car run as well or better than with any other piggy back computer if he or his tuner (or who ever) has the knowledge and time to spend with it. In the case of the EMS the datalogging is just kick *** and so helpful it alone is almost enough to keep the unit around.

Personally I hate to see anyone spend money on something only to have to sell it or upgrade it again in the future. Complete waste of time and money. Maybe you don't agree with that.

That still doesn't answer what you were trying to imply in your first response either......I am still waiting for that.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

Propeller head wrote this:
"So Shiv is suggesting that Dave relies on Big Al for tuning and finds it ironic that Big Al had Martin tune his EMS? Is that what this is about? I don't really give a crap. Surely this can be taken offline..."

That's a good one, I surely hope that isn't what he was referring too. I see no reason to take any of this offline. Go back and look at what I have written, I was not attempting to start anything. I simply stated it is a shame to see someone get rid of a standalone to go back to some type of piggy back.

As a side note, Al has never helped me with any EMS tuning, it was the other way around. Big deal, some of us actually work with other shops and help EACH other out.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

I dont understand the driveability issue people are bringing up with the Aem Ems. I run 500whp+ on a car that gets driven everyday and it has the drivibility of a stock Ecu. Most people never notice anything different when being driven in the car and I have never had a any problems. The gas mileage is actually amazing(almost stock) on the freeway considering im using 1000cc injectors. I believe piggybacks are for those that have set limits on their mod paths, the EMS is for those that want to go a bit further. The tuner is the important key here. My perfect driveability and problem free car is arttributed to his talents. By the way the ems was bought from Buschur but tuned here in California.

 

I think there are some cold start issues that have been mentioned with the AEM EMS. Basically, you sit there and crank and crank and eventually it starts up. But, then again, you can decide to do things like not put in the clutch to start the car for instance. And also, no P0300 problems with the EMS. I have yet to a piggy back (or flash) that successfully been able to address that issue.

 

Glad to hear you are having great luck gofaster87. The driveability, depending on the combination can be tough to get perfect. The idle, hands down is easy to get better than stock on an EVO with the EMS. Some of the tip in throttle on the stand alones can be tough, depending on combinations. Fuel mileage, I agree, totally blow away stock fuel mileage with the EMS. I did a car here a few months ago that left with 1000 cc injectors in it, was driven back to Maryland and got 28 mpg on the way home. Would be easy to knock down over 30 mpg in a highly modified EVO with a little bit of work.

Who tuned your car? Since you are giving them credit, let it be known. There are a couple exceptional tuners out there for the EMS. There are also a couple guys that shouldn't be tuning them at all.

There are some great piggybacks out there, hell the Xede might be one, I have never even seen one. Just a simple AFC works great, depends on what you are trying to do. I simply made the statement it is a shame to see someone get rid of a standalone to go back to a piggyback, waste of time and money when the standalone can be made to do everything and more than a piggyback system.

The HKS V-Pro is a kick *** system. I can't get over how much I like it. Doesn't do everything that he EMS does though but does somethings better. Tons of choices...

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

The issue you are talking about with the EMS isn't a cold start issue, it is a starting issue all together. Not even really an issue, the car just has to crank longer than it did stock. AEM is working on this. It is taking to long to get the cam signal basically. That is one of the things I was thinking of when I said how much I like the V Pro, it starts instantly like the stock car does.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

Just a quick question, why is the Autronic system not that popular in the USA...it is in the UK ?

Andy

 

I heard that there was a big shipment of Autronics in the US that some tuner had been sitting on for a long while. Then they decided not to sell them for some reason. I'm not sure what happened to them.

I know RnR has successfully used an Autronics in their 10 sec Evo.

 

Dave,
FWIW, I know of many people who have been running EMS systems and have been unsatisifed with the performance and drivabilty (start-up, cold-start, warm start, knock resistance etc,.) They have been tuned by "trained professionals" and have yet to see the light at the end of the tunnel. In fact, many were the same people that spoke so highly of it in the first place only to come to the realization of the compromises involved. There is no question that a stand-alone is capable of making good power. The questions is how much more power than an XEDE if both are tuned correctly with a sufficient margin of safety. The answer is: no more power. Controlling a combustion is not more complicated that squirting in some fuel in proper proportion with air and then signaling for a well timed spark event.

Of course, is "kick ***" datalogging, having to rewire your factory engine harness for a new air intake temp and 3.5bar MAP sensor, and the ability to tell someone that you are running X degrees of advance at Y RPM with Zkpa MAP pressure is your thing, the choice is pretty clear. Get a stand-alone. And if you really want to learn about engine controls and see the cause/effect relationship (both positive and negative) of every key that you punch, then you should really get the stand-alone.

However, if stock-like drivability, stock-like margin of safety, an intact diagnostic system and the ability to dynamically adapt to a variety of operating conditions are your thing, then the choice is equally clear. And it's not spelled with 3 letters.

Yes, it is unfortunate to see a customer spend $1600-2000 on an EMS and then another $500-600 to get it tuned and then have to live with a few irritating compromises when he could have spent $995 on an XEDE, uploaded a baseline map which actually works and never have to hook up a computer or go to a professional tuner again. Kinda takes us (tuners) out of the loop a bit but it makes our customers happier.

I don't think I'm unreasonably pessimistic with regards to stand-alones and their function in street car applications. However, I am a realist who doesn't like seeing people get shafted by getting talked into something they don't need or even want down the road. Hearing stories about people getting talked into stand-alones, wide-band o2 sensors, ignition upgrades, etc,. when running stock turbos on pump gas is offensive enough. Seeing others parrot misinformation freely on the net when empirical evidence suggests otherwise is equally hard to stomach.

Best Regards,
shiv

Shiv

 

The Autronic is popular in markets where the EVO has been available for longer. In Australia and UK, the Autronic has been available for the EVO for several generations. As the EVO 8 is the first model available in the US, different equipment is popular for it here.

The Autronic is a good standalone as well. Capability wise it is similar to the AEM EMS. The main reason I think the AEM EMS is superior is because of the great support provided by the EMS community on the AEM EMS forums and by select AEM EMS EVO specialist dealers like Turbo Trix, Buschur Racing, AMS, and Road Race Engineering. Go compare the Autronic support forums to the AEM EMS support...

The biggest problem with standalones is they are only as good as the tuner, and 99% of the "professional" tuners couldn't tune a radio station...

 

You have quite the vocabulary. So in other words we agree on this on a whole? As for some of the things you mentioned (in case they were pointed at me) we sell the complete EMS for what they say the least is we can offer it at, I then tune them for free. No hidden fees. Most cars leave here with a pump gas map and a race gas map.

As far as the safety margin, the EMS can be set up as safely as the tuner makes it. I actually think the safety margin that is available with the EMS is 100% better than the factory ECU. Set up the EMS correctly and I would have to say it would be impossible to blow up the car.

Hell this can go on and on. I say we pretty much agree on all of this. Still not sure what you were implying in the beginning or why you jumped on me, still waiting for that answer.
What, you trying to act more like me or something?!

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

Actually, that's only if you want to convert to a speed density setup. I'm sure if the Xede allowed it, similar modifications would need to be made. IMO, its a lot better than running new wires from the EMS for each new sensor. Just splice in to stock wires makes it a lot cleaner install.

If you configure the EMS to use the stock air-flow meter and narrowband o2 sensor, it is completely plug and play and reqires no splicing at all.

 

Good points man

FEW of these people realize that 99% f the driveability issues on the AEM come from the speed density conversion. I tuned a few with the stock MAF sesnor which run very close to stock.

 

I could use the same exact argument to say that no customer should spend more than $199 for the base Dyno Flash. I am a realist also and I see that the track times on the reflash cars are faster than the track times on the piggy back cars.

BTW - I am still also waiting to hear an answer to Dave Buschur's question - as to what you meant before.

I can say this on that general subject, the method of the Buschur Flash and the specified parameters that it utilizes were personally directed by Dave Buschur himself on the famous Buschur Racing dyno almost a year ago.

I still remember clearly that day my collberation with Dave Buschur and seeing how he tunes and the kind of results he obtains. There is no doubt in my mind that Dave Buschur is one of the best tuners you will find anywhere - on any ecu platform. At the time, the whp numbers made with David Buschur's direction on the Evo with the Buschur Flash were record numbers for a reflash. Dave's guidance and advice were what made most of the success with the reflashes possible.

When I returned to Buschur Racing this year for the DSM shootout, I watched as Dave Buschur and Jason Siebles from AEM tuned AEM EMS systems all weekend. After seeing the kind of amazing idle and driveability they were capable of achiving I was honored to have Dave Buschur personally do some tuning on my AEM. Watching Dave in action - I was fully aware that he is one of the best tuners out there. The next day at the track, I beat my personal best on the Gt30 turbo going a 10 second pass for the first time and my car was ideling much better and smoother. As far as Evos and 4G63 it is clear that Dave Buschur is the leading tuner on these platforms. He has been doing this for many years and achiving results that most of the other so called tuners can only dream of. Its really comical to see someone trying to imply that others are tuning for Dave Buschur. If anything it is totally the OTHER way around!

Collaberating with other tuners and sharing ideas and methods is a great way to learn and grow professionally.

Top doctors and business leaders all attend seminars and read journals to see what new ideas are out there and share different methods of doing things. Tuners dont have journals or confernces - we meet at race tracks and dynos. The smart ones ask questions of each other and share ideas.

A lot of people like to make fun of the fact that I have invited many fellow tuners - such as Martin at AMS, Dan at Pruven and Dave Buschur to do some tuning on my car over the past year. In each case, it showed me new ways of doing things and helped be to grow as a tuner.

NOW - if you look at the new turbo magazine - I am making 667 whp on my own tune in my AEM system and going 10.59 in the 1/4 mile. Learning and sharing ideas is the best way to stay on top and make progress.