I thought water/alky injection was safe for the engine? I heard that Methanol is the one with corosive properties towards your engine? Is there any set-in-stone answers for this?

 

I know on the drag cars that run off of this stuff it is highly corrosive. Im not sure if injecting a small amount would have any bad affects or not. Good question

 

Yea...I'm trying to see if Alky/Water injection is safe. I have heard Methanol injection is not the best for the internals...to say the least. But a 50/50 mix of alky and water...is THAT 100% safe?

The reason why I'm asking is... my EVO is a true daily driver, and my only car. But like the next guy..I want the fullest potential out of the car power wise while keeping a sense of reliability. I am going to AMS next monday for a built shortblock plus thier water injection kit. I know methanol will allow insane boost numbers daily.. but the corrosiveness keeps me runnin from it. I wonder how long it takes for meth injection to really do some significant damage on the engine. But what I REALLY wanna know is... is water/alky mix 100% safe?

 

here is some info : Methanol will attack and corrode certain metals, such as magnesium and aluminum. Additionally, the corrosion products of aluminum and methanol will precipitate out of the liquid fuel and clog filters and fuel injectors. For this reason, it is recommended that metals such as stainless steel and carbon steel be used in methanol fuel systems and fuel delivery systems. Methanol will also attack many common elastomeric materials, like rubber, polyurethane, and most plastics. Elastomers with high fluorine content and Teflon have been proven to be compatible with methanol. No special fabrication techniques are necessary to produce methanol fuel systems for flexible-fuel vehicles, although new techniques would probably be necessary to produce methanol reformers for methanol-fueled fuel cell vehicles.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/CARS/rules/...ilability1.htm

 

Thanks zlancer! Good info.

Here's some FAQ from www.alkycontrol.com

http://home.att.net/~alkycontrol/page8.htm

1) What is alcohol injection? The premise of alcohol injection stems from the use of water injection, which has been used as a detonation control method since applications in WWII fighter plane engines. Injection reduces intake air temp charges tremendously, has a de-carbonizing effect on pistons and valves, will minimize plug fouling and will not harm the O2 sensor. Alcohol has a tremendous effect on reducing deposit buildup within the intake manifold. The fewer oil, grime and carbon deposits, the cleaner the engine will run…and with less detonation.

2) Will alcohol/water damage my engine? The answer to this question is no “IF” a properly designed system is in place. Water/alcohol will cause no damage to engine components assuming proper amounts are administered. Now, if the engine is not in a condition to handle the extra horsepower afforded by increased cylinder pressure (boost), then yes damage is quite possible. The state of tune and mechanical condition should be in ‘correct order’ before increasing cylinder pressure on any engine. One example relates to the fuel system. If your fuel pump, injectors and regulator are incapable of supporting the newly found horsepower and the engine leans out, damage will likely occur. Another example relates to bearings. If the engine is ‘tired’ or worn, addition of greater pressure to the lower end will lead to a shorter life span. Lastly, increased power levels will decrease life expectancy of drive train components such as transmissions and rear ends. There is always a price to be paid by elevating horsepower. An injection system will produce tremendous power gains on simple pump gasoline.

3) Can I run my current race fuel boost setting when using alcohol injection? Yes, though the timing used may be less. Some vehicles (like my own), will tolerate more boost with alcohol injection than with race fuel, though I run more timing on race gas than alcohol. Example: I can run 24 PSI on race gas, but any higher will produce detonation (KR) due to high incoming air temps and a moderately efficient intercooler. With alcohol injection and my own combination of components, I have seen in excess of 30PSI boost with no significant KR…and gone faster than I ever have using race fuel.

4) Will alcohol corrode my engine? No. While alcohol is corrosive to ‘submerged’ parts, once misted into a pressurized intake tract, it flashes and is subsequently consumed by the engine. Potentially, the reservoir, pump, lines and nozzle are the only parts where corrosion may be an issue since they will be in constant contact with the chemical.

5) Explain temperature drop? In laymen’s terms, go to a sporting event. You may see fans with little mist nozzles. If you walk in front of a fan while it’s misting water, you will be cooled down, but not soaked. Evaporative air conditioners operate on a similar principle.

6) Why reduce intake air temperature? To make more power. The cooler (more dense) the air entering the engine, the more power produced (without ‘knock’). The hotter the air, the more likely detonation will occur, particularly under pressurization.

7) Do I need a bigger intercooler with alcohol/water injection? One of the primary advantages to an injection system is reduction of air temps. If you run a small IC and wish to extend its capabilities, a properly designed alcohol injection system will allow higher boost levels and greater air temp reductions than even the largest liquid cooled intercoolers. Now, it should be noted that large intercoolers do provide benefits. Rather than reducing temperatures from lets say 300 to 100, we can now go from 200 to 50 degrees. The lower the temperatures exiting the IC, the more effective our alcohol injection system.

8) How much timing can I run with alcohol? This will depend on boost, intake air temps, engine’s state of tune and how much is being sprayed. Regarding horsepower increases, most turbocharged and supercharged engines generally respond better to low timing and higher boost rather than high timing and lower boost. Once the limit has been found on boost, then timing can be added while watching for the inevitable detonation.

9) How does one tune an injection system? The typical fashion of tuning an water/alcohol injection system is to monitor knock retard a.k.a. KR. On vehicles that have knock sensors it is a breeze, since the idea is to ‘spray’ the intake air tract, watch for KR while increasing boost pressure levels and monitor engine performance levels so they are not compromised by an excessive amount of spray.

10) How much is too much? Typically on cars tuned at the race track, one watches for most MPH increase at the finish line while at the same time monitoring for KR. Typically the greatest power will be found when the engine is on the verge of producing KR, but does not. In other words, ‘spray’ just enough to avoid KR without flooding the engine.

11) What happens if I spray too much? The engine generally responds by losing power, but without detonating. In laymen’s terms, think of it as pouring water into your mouth versus drinking from a cup.

12) Why alcohol over water? This is the big controversy on the internet injection sites. While proponents of water can be found on various injection websites, it has been my own finding along with others, that injecting higher concentrations of alcohol as compared to water can produce more power. This is due to the fact alcohol burns and water steams. They both offer detonation control, but the higher octane afforded by alcohol, allows for far superior horsepower production. Top alcohol dragsters are examples. They run tremendous cylinder pressures on alcohol and if one looks at the intake manifold on an alchy burning racecar, it will look ‘iced down’ after a run. Also, because of the cooling properties of alcohol, these types of racecars are typically left running in order for engine temperatures can be raised. That shows how effective alcohol can be.

13) How does the system work? Typically an alcohol injection system is comprised of a reservoir, pump, nozzle and a method to energize the pump under specific conditions. In its simplest form, a pressure switch is used to trigger a relay that in turn applies power to the pump. This arrangement works, but has limitations. It is important to keep the air fuel ratio (AFR) stable while introducing a substance into the engine. This is even more necessary with alcohol, since it is combustible.

14) Why use boost versus rpm? Higher boost levels will increase cylinder pressures, not rpm’s. In other words, KR is initiated more so by boost than by rpm…so that is the reason injection systems are triggered by boost rather than rpm. Normally aspirated engines are the exception. These applications normally can be designed using a vacuum switch set at a low level (like 2 inches to trigger). At this trigger point the system ‘fires’ the nozzle.

15) Why progressive? With a ‘set turn-on point’ system, typically the activation point will be earlier than the engine will experience KR. This is done due to the lag time between pump ‘firing’, lines filling, nozzle misting, air saturation and this air making its way into the combustion chamber. For example, if a particular engine is known to experience detonation at 13 PSI boost, activating the system at 13 PSI while the turbo or blower is in the process of increasing pressure to 20 PSI, detonation will occur until the alcohol makes it way into the chamber. Therefore, some systems are triggered a few lbs. ‘early’ in an effort to avoid the dreaded KR. Example: 9 PSI ‘turn-on point’. The needle starts climbing on the boost gauge. At 9 PSI it fires the system and by the time the boost is at 13 PSI the motor is seeing alcohol. Everything’s great, right? Wrong…herein lies a problem in making power. If an engine at 20PSI boost pressure requires 100PSI pressure on a nozzle to offset detonation, applying that same100 PSI pressure at 9 PSI boost will REDUCE the AFR tremendously, thereby reducing performance as the engine is attempting to build boost and thus power. The solution in keeping AFR lean and mean throughout the boost-rising curve is to gradually increase pressure from the pump. Low boost=low pressure. High boost=high pressure. So here is where the magic takes place…most cars will never have exact boost pressure readings. Variables include such things as outside air temperature, barometric pressure, humidity, wastegate control, exhaust, boost controller, etc. A progressive system with a manifold air pressure (MAP) capable of adjusting to the pressure will yield the best results by lowering or raising system pressure. As boost creeps up, the system automatically increases output. Conversely, boost goes down, the system automatically decreases output.

16) How will your PAC system make my car faster than what your competitors offer? Reasonable question. Key points…automatic and progressive. Our system automatically adjusts injection to your engine ‘as needed’ while assuring a more stable AFR as boost pressure increases. The important end result? A much more linear power curve. Also, my progressive controller is the only one on the market that allows for an adjustable ramp control, a reduced output control input on the controller, potted electronics, regulated circuitry, voltage and surge suppression. High impedance on all inputs makes the controller virtually invisible to electronics within the vehicle, so it interfaces with all aftermarket electronics.

17) What is a “reduced output control input”? The controller has an input connection that when “ground” is applied to the wire it reduces pressure output from the pump to assist with building boost on cars run at race tracks. This feature makes for a faster spool-up while the system is on. Other applications are for clutches in order to reduce output while a clutch is depressed for example.

18) Why make the ramp variable? This is done to tailor the pressure being produced by the pump to meet the requirements of the engine. In other progressive controllers this is preset and can be a major problem if too much voltage is sent to the pump at a boost level that is too low. Our controllers allow for an “initial” ramp speed control and a fine-tuning control of this initial ramp speed to compensate for changes in weather and racing conditions.

19) Why Alkycontrol over the competition? We only use the highest quality materials in an effort to assure you have the most reliable and durable system possible for your vehicle. The same level of expertise is applied if we custom design a system to fit your specific vehicle and performance requirements.

20) Why use a filter? The nozzles used in our kits have a small diameter orifice. To prevent the clogging of the nozzle, our pressure hose incorporates a filter with a much smaller micron design in order to capture any debris that may make its way into and out of your container. The filter is back washable using alcohol and never needs replacement. It is fully compatible with alcohol, water or mixtures thereof.

21) Does your system need a lube added? Lube is dependant on the type of pump being used. On our system no lube is required to lubricate the pump. Actually, we don’t recommend the use of lubricants with our pump. You’ll have plenty of oil inside your intake and in the gasoline used. If the alcohol you purchase has the lube premixed, it has no bearing on operation.

22) Who would not see increased power using AI? An example would be a racecar using a huge liquid intercooler packed with ice and using C16 race gas. Once you address the temperature and octane the benefits are reduced to EGT control and cleaning. In an application such as this, benefits are reduced.

23) How does one tune a system? This is the question where starting out mild then going to wild pays the most benefits. Typically, for a few lbs. of boost over stock levels almost no changes are required. For higher power levels, recalibrating (reducing) the fueling and incorporating higher volumes of alcohol while adjusting timing will yield the best results. This is an individual thing. There is no one set of rules that will apply to all vehicles. There are too many variables.

24) Can I use windshield washer fluid? If you check the chemical composition of the washer fluid and ascertain it doesn’t contain soap or chemicals that would be detrimental to the operation of the vehicle, yes. Examples are winter formulas that use 50-100% concentrations of methanol.

25) What kind of alcohol? Any…as long as it doesn’t contain sugar. Some examples are methanol, denatured and isopropyl.

26) Where can I buy denatured? This type of alcohol is typically found in paint stores and is used as thinner.

27) Where can I buy isopropyl? This is also known as rubbing alcohol…available at most pharmacies.

28) Where can I buy methanol? This is also known as racing alcohol. Look in your phone book under automobile racecars. Start calling around. Typically, with a little effort you will find a source. I purchase mine at a local race gas supplier and my local ¼ mile racetrack sells it for $2.50/gallon at the pump. Other uses are chemical processing for cosmetics. So, industrial chemical suppliers may be a possible source. One of my customers reported his company buys a 55gallon drum for $110.00. Also sprint cars, go-karts, etc. use methanol as a fuel.

29) What works the best? Personally, I have observed the highest power output when racing with 100% methanol.

30) Can the system pose a threat to my vehicle? Our systems are designed for off-road-use only. While we cannot encourage filling the container with straight alcohol when the vehicle will be operated on public roadways, mixing a ‘diluted’ 50/50 solution of alcohol/water renders the alcohol non-flammable…and there is always the option of using straight water. In an effort to minimize risks associated with a flammable liquid, our systems include braided hoses, but user discretion and safety precautions are strongly advised. We cannot assume any liability for damages incurred by the use and/or improper installation of a flammable liquid system in a passenger vehicle.


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Methanol fuel systems and methanol injection obviously are not one and the same. A methanol injection kit has no way of affecting fuel system components for obvious reasons. As to the extent at which methanol can affect aluminum intake components, that remains to be seen. However, given the relative infrequency of methanol use and the low volume of methanol injected, I doubt it poses a major concern.

 

Methanol is very corrosive. However, the upside is that it has great cooling properties. You have to be careful when handling methanol. It is very different from alky injection.