White Rabbit Discussion - MERGED
Jul 18, 2005, 02:47 PM
#1
White Rabbit Discussion - MERGED
I thought a lot of people would be interested in seeing this post by Robert Young and might miss it since it's quickly getting buried in one of the many very long WR threads:
Robert Young wrote:
"I usually avoid posting, but there seems to be a group of people hovering over any thread regarding this turbo trying to make sure their names get spelled correctly. There is lots of misinformation on this board about our little White Rabbit upgrade turbocharger. The internet blog has stayed well ahead of our own internal webmaster as far as info releases have gone.
First off, never before have I encountered such a well organized group of people so tickled to slam a specific product before in my life, to the point where they go out of their way to perform or offer to perform "free testing" so they can jump up and down happily pointing out that a car was missing power.
This unit does exactly what it was intended to do, get the most possible power out of a bolt on turbocharger utilizing the stock sized TD05H turbine wheel in a lightweight TiAl form.
There is only one way to get a TD05H turbine wheel to give up some more power, and that is to spin it faster. The stock compressor wheel gives up at about 140-150krpm and will not readily run more than 26-27psi of intake manifold boost even in the midrange of its RPM band. The TD05H turbine wheel will continue to flow additional air all the way to about 170krpm. That small available flow potential is all that exists from Mitsubishi as far as an inherent shortcoming in the stock turbo.
Those are the limitations of the stock parts; those are the constraints that any upgrade turbo must live with.
Our approach was to make a CW that that does not require as much shaft torque as the 16g6 in order to go beyond 140krpm; this allows a little more air to pass through the Smallish TD05H turbine wheel. This is why the compressor wheel has a very small hub and 5 blades as opposed to the older 20g and 21g designs which use 6 blades and larger cross section hubs.
What many people don’t realize is that the hub diameter/profile of the compressor wheel is just as important to the flow rate of the CW as the outer diameter/profile. Using a much thinner hub and 1 less blade pair allows the compressor to move more air, and spin at a higher rpm given the limited amount of shaft torque available from the smallish TD05H turbine wheel. The short and sweet is that our wheel has a smaller hub and a smaller outer diameter than the 20g wheel and as a result will spin up to a higher RPM given the same limited amount of shaft power available from the TD05H turbine wheel.
In order to see any of these benefits, you must be operating outside the range of what the factory equipped 16g6 can provide. The factory 16g6 begins to operate outside its envelope around 5,000 engine RPM and 26psi of boost pressure. By the time you get to 7500rpm this envelope has reduced to about 18psi.
This is why most users of the turbocharger see a greater improvement at 7500rpm than they do at 5000rpm (unless they are on race gas and letting it spike to 27+psi). The peak HP increase is less than the HP increase at 7500rpm because the turbocharger works better and better the farther you get outside the operation envelope of the 16g6.
Peak HP increase of 25-35whp and 7500rpm increases of 50-70whp are typical when maxing this unit out. This is the result that we observed on EVERY ONE of the prototypes tested, and this is what I personally told everyone that purchased the turbocharger at the time they placed their orders. Some people did not speak to a sales rep when they bought their turbo, I guess some people saw a 441whp "let's see if it blows up" glory pull and thought they could do better so they just bought one no questions asked.
If any of you think that you can do an AEM tune up as good as Tym Switzer, you should have taken the blue pill from Morphious and woke up back in your bed instead of following the rabbit down the hole. We went to Tym because he has always been the guy that leaves NOTHING on the table when it comes to make power.
In Bushurs own words from Oct 2003 on EvoM:
“Tym just called me from the track. It is a beautiful Friday afternoon and some local guys had the track rented and gave us an invitation to come out.
I was busy so I asked Tym to take the EVO out and give it a shot. He just called, like I said, and said he just ran the first pass. I do think we have a stock turbo record here!!
1.62 sixty foot time
7.46 @ 92.15 at the 1/8th mile
11.65 @ 117.88 mph at the 1/4 mile
This is his first pass today. He is going to give me another call if he betters that. He told me on the phone the AFR was 10.0:1 going through the traps and he was going to do some tuning on it, he feels this is why the MPH is a little low.
The car has all of our parts on it, found on our site, through Stage 4. We currently have the AEM on it, the AFC is not being used.
The driveabililty of this thing is better than stock, it has never ran this nice.
Just a side note, GREAT JOB TYM ON THE TUNING AND DRIVING, YOU DA MAN!!”
and later that same day:
“I am just amazed what knowledge and time has brought this new development to. Tym has done a kick *** job on tuning the AEM along with the many other things he has contributed to this project (like todays 11.65 pass that he drove). It is an honor to have him as not only an employee but a good friend.
Thanks for reading guys,
David Buschur”
Looks like Tym knew what he was doing in Oct 2003.
I'm sorry, but I do not have the time to check back on these threads throughout the day. If anyone would like to talk further about this turbo or any of the other turbochargers in this lineup, please give me a call. You may be surprised what you hear straight from the horses mouth.
To repeat, I apologize in advance for not responding to these forum threads, but time just does not allow for it. If you want to know something just give us a call.
Thanks for the space"
Robert Young wrote:
"I usually avoid posting, but there seems to be a group of people hovering over any thread regarding this turbo trying to make sure their names get spelled correctly. There is lots of misinformation on this board about our little White Rabbit upgrade turbocharger. The internet blog has stayed well ahead of our own internal webmaster as far as info releases have gone.
First off, never before have I encountered such a well organized group of people so tickled to slam a specific product before in my life, to the point where they go out of their way to perform or offer to perform "free testing" so they can jump up and down happily pointing out that a car was missing power.
This unit does exactly what it was intended to do, get the most possible power out of a bolt on turbocharger utilizing the stock sized TD05H turbine wheel in a lightweight TiAl form.
There is only one way to get a TD05H turbine wheel to give up some more power, and that is to spin it faster. The stock compressor wheel gives up at about 140-150krpm and will not readily run more than 26-27psi of intake manifold boost even in the midrange of its RPM band. The TD05H turbine wheel will continue to flow additional air all the way to about 170krpm. That small available flow potential is all that exists from Mitsubishi as far as an inherent shortcoming in the stock turbo.
Those are the limitations of the stock parts; those are the constraints that any upgrade turbo must live with.
Our approach was to make a CW that that does not require as much shaft torque as the 16g6 in order to go beyond 140krpm; this allows a little more air to pass through the Smallish TD05H turbine wheel. This is why the compressor wheel has a very small hub and 5 blades as opposed to the older 20g and 21g designs which use 6 blades and larger cross section hubs.
What many people don’t realize is that the hub diameter/profile of the compressor wheel is just as important to the flow rate of the CW as the outer diameter/profile. Using a much thinner hub and 1 less blade pair allows the compressor to move more air, and spin at a higher rpm given the limited amount of shaft torque available from the smallish TD05H turbine wheel. The short and sweet is that our wheel has a smaller hub and a smaller outer diameter than the 20g wheel and as a result will spin up to a higher RPM given the same limited amount of shaft power available from the TD05H turbine wheel.
In order to see any of these benefits, you must be operating outside the range of what the factory equipped 16g6 can provide. The factory 16g6 begins to operate outside its envelope around 5,000 engine RPM and 26psi of boost pressure. By the time you get to 7500rpm this envelope has reduced to about 18psi.
This is why most users of the turbocharger see a greater improvement at 7500rpm than they do at 5000rpm (unless they are on race gas and letting it spike to 27+psi). The peak HP increase is less than the HP increase at 7500rpm because the turbocharger works better and better the farther you get outside the operation envelope of the 16g6.
Peak HP increase of 25-35whp and 7500rpm increases of 50-70whp are typical when maxing this unit out. This is the result that we observed on EVERY ONE of the prototypes tested, and this is what I personally told everyone that purchased the turbocharger at the time they placed their orders. Some people did not speak to a sales rep when they bought their turbo, I guess some people saw a 441whp "let's see if it blows up" glory pull and thought they could do better so they just bought one no questions asked.
If any of you think that you can do an AEM tune up as good as Tym Switzer, you should have taken the blue pill from Morphious and woke up back in your bed instead of following the rabbit down the hole. We went to Tym because he has always been the guy that leaves NOTHING on the table when it comes to make power.
In Bushurs own words from Oct 2003 on EvoM:
“Tym just called me from the track. It is a beautiful Friday afternoon and some local guys had the track rented and gave us an invitation to come out.
I was busy so I asked Tym to take the EVO out and give it a shot. He just called, like I said, and said he just ran the first pass. I do think we have a stock turbo record here!!
1.62 sixty foot time
7.46 @ 92.15 at the 1/8th mile
11.65 @ 117.88 mph at the 1/4 mile
This is his first pass today. He is going to give me another call if he betters that. He told me on the phone the AFR was 10.0:1 going through the traps and he was going to do some tuning on it, he feels this is why the MPH is a little low.
The car has all of our parts on it, found on our site, through Stage 4. We currently have the AEM on it, the AFC is not being used.
The driveabililty of this thing is better than stock, it has never ran this nice.
Just a side note, GREAT JOB TYM ON THE TUNING AND DRIVING, YOU DA MAN!!”
and later that same day:
“I am just amazed what knowledge and time has brought this new development to. Tym has done a kick *** job on tuning the AEM along with the many other things he has contributed to this project (like todays 11.65 pass that he drove). It is an honor to have him as not only an employee but a good friend.
Thanks for reading guys,
David Buschur”
Looks like Tym knew what he was doing in Oct 2003.
I'm sorry, but I do not have the time to check back on these threads throughout the day. If anyone would like to talk further about this turbo or any of the other turbochargers in this lineup, please give me a call. You may be surprised what you hear straight from the horses mouth.
To repeat, I apologize in advance for not responding to these forum threads, but time just does not allow for it. If you want to know something just give us a call.
Thanks for the space"
Jul 18, 2005, 04:15 PM
#4
Evolved Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 2,218
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by nutrulz
Thanks for putting this back up. Hopefully it will quell the pointless chatter.
Still a great read though..
Jul 18, 2005, 04:39 PM
#5
Evolved Member
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: ATX / Qatar
Posts: 645
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good post but I do wish that they would post on the forums more often. If Mark @ TT and Shiv have got the time, who doesn't. The turbo will just have to speak for itself and I think it will be a success.
Keep in mind that the, guy who created all this controversy had a faulty install. The same guy who went to TT and then dynoflash.
Keep in mind that the, guy who created all this controversy had a faulty install. The same guy who went to TT and then dynoflash.
Jul 18, 2005, 05:38 PM
#7
Nice post. I think i have the stocker maxxed out, i wouldn't mind doing the same with the little WR. I pulled 117mph traps on the stocker with stock head, stock manifolds(not ported), stock o2 housing, stock clutch, stock bald tires(why i only got a 12.0 out of it)....
so i know 2-3 extra psi in the midrange and up top will be nice.....
so i know 2-3 extra psi in the midrange and up top will be nice.....
Trending Topics
Jul 18, 2005, 10:56 PM
#9
So have all of the WR threads been shut down?
I cannot believe that all of the WR threads have been shut down and that ForcedPerf's responce was erased. I do not cause much trouble here, but that is rediculous. So are the words "white rabbit" never to be spoken of here again? Sounds like "Voldemort" from Harry Potter or something, maybe if we just ignore it and peoples opinions then they will go away......
Did SpeedLimit have anything to do with this?
Did SpeedLimit have anything to do with this?
