which is better the white rabbit or the 20g
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
The GT3071 spools up nicely but is laggier than the stock turbo by probably 1,000-1500 rpm, peak power I have made on our dyno on 93/alky mix is 351 whp. On straight race gas in my car, with more mods, I have made 361 with the 20G. GT3071 is more linear.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Mr. Buschur,
With your 20G turbo, is it possible to eliminate the surge with proper tuning...I seem to remember reading somewhere a customer of yours with the 20G had surge and was able to eliminate it by adjusting his BOV.
The surge is the only thing holding me back from puchasing your kit vs the White Rabbit. Of course I dont plan on buying it till tax season. But research is the key.
With your 20G turbo, is it possible to eliminate the surge with proper tuning...I seem to remember reading somewhere a customer of yours with the 20G had surge and was able to eliminate it by adjusting his BOV.
The surge is the only thing holding me back from puchasing your kit vs the White Rabbit. Of course I dont plan on buying it till tax season. But research is the key.
Last edited by althemean; Oct 1, 2005 at 08:51 PM.
Originally Posted by trinydex
the difference between the stock turbo and any ANY ANY ANY aftermarket turbo is 1000 rpms of lag. gimme ANY stock turbo and ANY aftermarket turbo and that is apparently the case.
according to br, vishnu, and everyone else's personal experiences, garrett turbos spool at 4000 (and apparently it doesn't matter if it's a 3071 3076 or gt35, every garret turbo spools at 4000, ridiculous isn't it? yeah i think so but that's what i keep freakin' hearin', that it "doesn't matter" just "go with the gt35" "that's the only turbo i'd ever put on this car" "that's the only turbo that's worth it"). stock turbos can have full spool at well below 3500, depending on your setup maybe even sub 3000.
that is the difference, that's why these turbochargers are here, that's why NO ONE understands, cuz in the end... there IS NO CHOICE, it's get a "big" turbo or stay stock. all the big turbos... what's the damn fuss about? as if any of them are even different, in the end it's just about support, who's *** you wanna kiss, who's your friend, what your friend is running, what company did this time and you wanna be just like them.
MAYBE just MAYBE the 30 series turbos DO spool faster than the gt35... then in that case... you have a marginal choice, make more than 550hp or just up to 550 hp.
i'm tired of reading mj's posts about defending the stocker on and how no one listens to anything. maybe it's just that the vendors need to be all about numbers so people buy from them. all about peak, gotta go big. i think i'm one of few people that is absolutely disgusted by the thought of a bigger turbine... WHY? WHY would i want that? so i can lose torque AND spool? WHYYYY would i EEEEVER wanna do THAT?
the small turbine is there so you can spool fast and produce torque... anyone ever notice that hardcore modded 9.8s almost ALWAYS produce more torque than hp? anyone notice that the 10.5s usually produce the SAME torque and hp and then when you get real hardcore lil less torque than hp but everything overlyall higher than the 9.8?
anyone notice (and this is a given) that all the big turbos don't make as much torque as hp? does anyone think this ratio is important? yeah cuz uhm... the gt35 makes more torque at 3000 rpms or something than the stock turbo does... uhm... anyone care to try and use that torque at that rpm?
sorry about the flusteration... at least now there is more talk about hte 3071... always knew that was a winner... and maybe there is a difference in spool for all the turbos.........
according to br, vishnu, and everyone else's personal experiences, garrett turbos spool at 4000 (and apparently it doesn't matter if it's a 3071 3076 or gt35, every garret turbo spools at 4000, ridiculous isn't it? yeah i think so but that's what i keep freakin' hearin', that it "doesn't matter" just "go with the gt35" "that's the only turbo i'd ever put on this car" "that's the only turbo that's worth it"). stock turbos can have full spool at well below 3500, depending on your setup maybe even sub 3000.
that is the difference, that's why these turbochargers are here, that's why NO ONE understands, cuz in the end... there IS NO CHOICE, it's get a "big" turbo or stay stock. all the big turbos... what's the damn fuss about? as if any of them are even different, in the end it's just about support, who's *** you wanna kiss, who's your friend, what your friend is running, what company did this time and you wanna be just like them.
MAYBE just MAYBE the 30 series turbos DO spool faster than the gt35... then in that case... you have a marginal choice, make more than 550hp or just up to 550 hp.
i'm tired of reading mj's posts about defending the stocker on and how no one listens to anything. maybe it's just that the vendors need to be all about numbers so people buy from them. all about peak, gotta go big. i think i'm one of few people that is absolutely disgusted by the thought of a bigger turbine... WHY? WHY would i want that? so i can lose torque AND spool? WHYYYY would i EEEEVER wanna do THAT?
the small turbine is there so you can spool fast and produce torque... anyone ever notice that hardcore modded 9.8s almost ALWAYS produce more torque than hp? anyone notice that the 10.5s usually produce the SAME torque and hp and then when you get real hardcore lil less torque than hp but everything overlyall higher than the 9.8?
anyone notice (and this is a given) that all the big turbos don't make as much torque as hp? does anyone think this ratio is important? yeah cuz uhm... the gt35 makes more torque at 3000 rpms or something than the stock turbo does... uhm... anyone care to try and use that torque at that rpm?
sorry about the flusteration... at least now there is more talk about hte 3071... always knew that was a winner... and maybe there is a difference in spool for all the turbos.........
uhm... cuz if you didn't notice the 05 and 04 come with more hp AND more torque... do i really have to answer such a question?
this generally is true after tuning also... hte final numbers are higher, but on the 9.8 you will always get torque SOONEr... if you wnated the ultimate spooling setup you'd get a 9.8 with tme internals and a evo 9 mag comp side. this setup would have EVERYTHINg going for it in terms of spool and early torque production.
also... faster is subjective terminology... if you ask mitsu wrc a few years back... they'd say the 9.8 is "faster" but they're also running a restrictor which disallows them from exploiting the 10.5's ultimately higher potentials. however they would never disagree that the 9.8 spools and produces torque faster.
this generally is true after tuning also... hte final numbers are higher, but on the 9.8 you will always get torque SOONEr... if you wnated the ultimate spooling setup you'd get a 9.8 with tme internals and a evo 9 mag comp side. this setup would have EVERYTHINg going for it in terms of spool and early torque production.
also... faster is subjective terminology... if you ask mitsu wrc a few years back... they'd say the 9.8 is "faster" but they're also running a restrictor which disallows them from exploiting the 10.5's ultimately higher potentials. however they would never disagree that the 9.8 spools and produces torque faster.
2 more ft. lbs of torque
Originally Posted by trinydex
uhm... cuz if you didn't notice the 05 and 04 come with more hp AND more torque... do i really have to answer such a question?
this generally is true after tuning also... hte final numbers are higher, but on the 9.8 you will always get torque SOONEr... if you wnated the ultimate spooling setup you'd get a 9.8 with tme internals and a evo 9 mag comp side. this setup would have EVERYTHINg going for it in terms of spool and early torque production.
also... faster is subjective terminology... if you ask mitsu wrc a few years back... they'd say the 9.8 is "faster" but they're also running a restrictor which disallows them from exploiting the 10.5's ultimately higher potentials. however they would never disagree that the 9.8 spools and produces torque faster.
this generally is true after tuning also... hte final numbers are higher, but on the 9.8 you will always get torque SOONEr... if you wnated the ultimate spooling setup you'd get a 9.8 with tme internals and a evo 9 mag comp side. this setup would have EVERYTHINg going for it in terms of spool and early torque production.
also... faster is subjective terminology... if you ask mitsu wrc a few years back... they'd say the 9.8 is "faster" but they're also running a restrictor which disallows them from exploiting the 10.5's ultimately higher potentials. however they would never disagree that the 9.8 spools and produces torque faster.
Also, I will put my 3071r against a stock turbo 9.8 or 10.5 in any race situation example: drag race, road race, rally race, street race, autocross, any of them. I bet the car with the 3071 wins every time, with everything else being equal. I don't notice the potential 500 rpm less spool at anytime(mine is actually like 200 less) and that turbo is much bigger.
I do agree, and I was waiting for a 9.8 or 10.5 with a bb center section and a re-worked trbine wheel. It looked as though that would not happen soon, so I went another direction.
Last edited by cnoevo8; Oct 2, 2005 at 02:30 PM.
Originally Posted by cnoevo8
Also, I will put my 3071r against a stock turbo 9.8 or 10.5 in any race situation ex. drag race, road race,....
if you meant example , what your 1/4 times with your 3071 ?
Originally Posted by matt55
did you mean except drag racing or example drag racing.....
if you meant example , what your 1/4 times with your 3071 ?
if you meant example , what your 1/4 times with your 3071 ?
are you sure about beating it in autocross? cuz even my stock turbo gets a lil laggy when coming out of tite turns in second gear.
i have been more involved in autox these past two weeks nad there is a local guy named carl with a blue evo vii running an evo400 turbo... his car is nuts... and i don't think you'd beat him out with a gt3071, simply cuz i don't see the 3071 as ever being as responsive and just plain nutty fast boosting as carl's evo400 turbo.
and there is no discussion about drag racing cuz there's no lag arguement there. more hp is more hp.
but what about for rally... not only does the reliability play in but also the earlier onset of torque.
seriously tho, i am glad that you have a 3071 and can speak on it so many others can hear. there's so much crap info when it comes to the 3071 and everyone is always bringing up that guy azear whatever his face is. good to know there's more than one option out there. good to know that the atp kit don't totally suck *****. good to know that there is a difference in all the garrett turbos. i consider my questions answered.
i have been more involved in autox these past two weeks nad there is a local guy named carl with a blue evo vii running an evo400 turbo... his car is nuts... and i don't think you'd beat him out with a gt3071, simply cuz i don't see the 3071 as ever being as responsive and just plain nutty fast boosting as carl's evo400 turbo.
and there is no discussion about drag racing cuz there's no lag arguement there. more hp is more hp.
but what about for rally... not only does the reliability play in but also the earlier onset of torque.
seriously tho, i am glad that you have a 3071 and can speak on it so many others can hear. there's so much crap info when it comes to the 3071 and everyone is always bringing up that guy azear whatever his face is. good to know there's more than one option out there. good to know that the atp kit don't totally suck *****. good to know that there is a difference in all the garrett turbos. i consider my questions answered.
My Untuned WR Impressions
My car is one of the few lightly modified Evos running this turbo so I figured I'd chime in with my impressions so far.
My car has has the following modifications:
3" TBE with High Flow Cat
DNP 02 Housing
Injen Intake/UICP Kit
Greddy V-SPL FMIC Kit w/lower pipes
HKS EVC V EZ2 set at 21psi
Forge DV
FP HP Actuator
Tuning:
Dynoflash Mail Tune for the above mods and a 10.5 exhaust housing
Impressions:
Response in normal driving is much improved, before and after having added the Injen kit (relocates teh DV direclty onto the uicp). In part throttle/part boost situations I noticed much less surge then with the stock turbo. From observing the machining of the compressor wheel to actually taking the car on the road for the first time the fact that this is a quality engineered piece is apparent.
Power: Throttle response is much improved, the turbo from tip in around 2800 up in 2nd gear hits full tilt immediately and holds 21psi all the way to 7500. Most likely would hold longer but without any means of logging I've been trying to take it easy with the car. Having ridden in a WR equipped car with Cams/Utec/110 leaded over what I have I can attest to the type of powerband you will feel with this setup, on my car Im just getting a slight preview. Interestingly, at a lower duty cycle on the EVC I was able to get the turbo to gain boost toward redline, theres no question this turbo spools much quicker and holds longer then my previous stock 9.8t turbo.
My goal in purchasing this turbo was to attain top end response *similar* to that of a cam equipped EVO. On the present tune/boost level the car feels much stronger up top then its previous state minus the intake, custom tuned. (275whp/315wtq with a major leak at hte discharge pipe). Previously I ran a spike of 22psi which would settle to 20 at 7k and 19 past that.
On the tune at present my feeling is that the car is running slightly lean across causing my advance to be inconsistent. From 5k-7.5k the car pulls cleanly and where it previously died out once I hit 4th gear it simply climbs harder. The response between shifts is also incomparable to my previous 9.8t setup.
Hopefully within the next week I can make a decision as to my direction for a tuning solution but I'm pretty sure that this turbo will maintain a much broader tq curve far into the red which should equate favorably at the track/strip, possibly not on the dyno sheets where peak numbers win out.
A good friend of mine will be testing the 20g soon on a setup capable of producing the results most of you are looking for (280s, Alky) and im sure the two units would compare favorably in either application.
Also I'd like to thank Robert from FP for releasing a great product, and for being one of the friendlier and more helpful individuals in the community.
My car has has the following modifications:
3" TBE with High Flow Cat
DNP 02 Housing
Injen Intake/UICP Kit
Greddy V-SPL FMIC Kit w/lower pipes
HKS EVC V EZ2 set at 21psi
Forge DV
FP HP Actuator
Tuning:
Dynoflash Mail Tune for the above mods and a 10.5 exhaust housing
Impressions:
Response in normal driving is much improved, before and after having added the Injen kit (relocates teh DV direclty onto the uicp). In part throttle/part boost situations I noticed much less surge then with the stock turbo. From observing the machining of the compressor wheel to actually taking the car on the road for the first time the fact that this is a quality engineered piece is apparent.
Power: Throttle response is much improved, the turbo from tip in around 2800 up in 2nd gear hits full tilt immediately and holds 21psi all the way to 7500. Most likely would hold longer but without any means of logging I've been trying to take it easy with the car. Having ridden in a WR equipped car with Cams/Utec/110 leaded over what I have I can attest to the type of powerband you will feel with this setup, on my car Im just getting a slight preview. Interestingly, at a lower duty cycle on the EVC I was able to get the turbo to gain boost toward redline, theres no question this turbo spools much quicker and holds longer then my previous stock 9.8t turbo.
My goal in purchasing this turbo was to attain top end response *similar* to that of a cam equipped EVO. On the present tune/boost level the car feels much stronger up top then its previous state minus the intake, custom tuned. (275whp/315wtq with a major leak at hte discharge pipe). Previously I ran a spike of 22psi which would settle to 20 at 7k and 19 past that.
On the tune at present my feeling is that the car is running slightly lean across causing my advance to be inconsistent. From 5k-7.5k the car pulls cleanly and where it previously died out once I hit 4th gear it simply climbs harder. The response between shifts is also incomparable to my previous 9.8t setup.
Hopefully within the next week I can make a decision as to my direction for a tuning solution but I'm pretty sure that this turbo will maintain a much broader tq curve far into the red which should equate favorably at the track/strip, possibly not on the dyno sheets where peak numbers win out.
A good friend of mine will be testing the 20g soon on a setup capable of producing the results most of you are looking for (280s, Alky) and im sure the two units would compare favorably in either application.
Also I'd like to thank Robert from FP for releasing a great product, and for being one of the friendlier and more helpful individuals in the community.
Last edited by fury656; Oct 3, 2005 at 08:13 AM.
New pricing on the TME 20G's from us!
The price for a brand new TME 20G turbo without a core is now $1350.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
The price for a brand new TME 20G turbo without a core is now $1350.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Evolving Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 323
Likes: 0
From: Elyria, OH.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Invisible
Hey fellas,
Interested in seeing what you think my car will be capable of in the coming month.
I currently have Buschur stage 1&2 on the car set for 19psi of boost
*Car dyno'ed at 270whp and 246wtq on a dynojet.
BR Magnaflow 3 inch exhaust
MBC
1G BOV
BR Intake
BR Upper intercooling piping
S-AFC
Buschur flash
BR Mini battery kit
BR MAF pipe kit
I am having the following installed on the car within the next month.
1) Full White Rabbit turbo
2) Alky kit - set at 10psi
3) * NEW* Exedy twin disk
4) Custom cams
5) Ecutech custom tune - 25psi of boost - two-step set for 5,500 rpm
6) Exhaust - Jun Bl Titanium
7) Walbro 255 fuel pump
8) Injectors - 660's or slightly bigger
* Goal is for 400whp and 400wtq
Just thought I would chim-in with my upcoming upgrades, and will post the actual numbers when they become available!
Last edited by evolvedmb; Oct 3, 2005 at 02:09 PM.