We had heard great things about the TT flash and it was a hundred bucks cheaper than Al's flash. The other thing that swayed me to TT was that Al beats on the cars very hard after the tune...something I didn't want taking place again. I figured I had nothing to lose.

We both only had mail-in tunes from Al so we were only guesstimating that we were in the ~310whp range (w/o cams).

I asked Mark why the numbers were so low, and if he thought there was something wrong with my car. He explained that a car with my mods puts down somewhere between 315-340whp and that mine was just average, not weak. He recommended I get a different BOV (had the stock in there for the tune) and also said the torque would be low unless I turned up the boost to 24psi or so, something he said the car didn't like on pump gas (as expected).

I didn't question further, but now after comparing my car's dynosheets to others, it is not that good. Driving my car vs. my friend's car that was tuned by Al at Pruven, it just feels torqueless...I don't get a huge hit of torque like his car does.

 

Yeah, they just said thats about what they've seen from cars with similar mods. I drove down because I was having fuel pump, head studs and cams installed as well as the dyno tune and comparing the price they charged with what Pruven/Al was going to charge, TT came in ~$200 cheaper.

 

[QUOTE=anjapower] The other thing that swayed me to TT was that Al beats on the cars very hard after the tune...something I didn't want taking place again. I figured I had nothing to lose.
[QUOTE]


One of the very important things to realize about dyno tuning is that its only an approximation of real world conditions. A experienced dyno tuner will know from past use just how to set the tune so that when you get out on the road the tune is very close. However, as the dyno is a mere approximation (especially the dyno jet) it is important to check the tune on the street very carefully to assure that the tuning paramaters aer set properly to avoid knock.

The rational for my very hard test driving on customers cars after the tune is becuase that is the only way to determine if the tune is safe and properly adjusted. A casual easy cruise will not tell you much about the knock. You need to run full throttle to make sure its running well. Evos are fast and this can become very stressful for customers who love their cars.

ANY CUSTOMERS who don't want me to test drive their cars simply have to say so.

After road testing well over 1,000 evos - there has never been any accident, or problems that have occured.

I want to avoid situations where people leave the dyno only to have the tune go flat the next day and feel knock induced puling of timing.

Just today, I was at mid ohio race track where I was tuning a Evo which is competing in the SCCA National Championships. It is a T2 class car which is essentialy a 100% stock power train. Today it was pushed for over one full hour of track testing being driven to the edge of its existance. My point is that doing a full throttle pass or two to test a tune is not going to do any harm to a properly tuned car.

 

Couple of things, generic statements, not getting into who is the best tuner...directly anyway

First, a dyno jet is not inconsistent, it does produce higher numbers than most other dyno's though. It is VERY consistent from pull-to-pull though. As far as trying to actually tune a car on one........tuning an AWD car on a 2wd Dynojet, like we use to, is absolutely worthless and does nothing but give you bragging rights with numbers. Tuning on an AWD Dynojet it a little better but the tuner better know what he needs to do to compensate because the AFR's are different when you hit the streets with the car.

As for tuning a car in 3 pulls it is very-very possible. Al has a few thousand different flashes stored in his database. I have seen him load a stock EVO on our AWD MD dyno, make a pull to get a baseline and then load in a flash. The next pull will absolutely amaze me as most of the time he is extremely close. One more pull and the AFR's are flat and where they are suppose to be. So in some cases a tuner that has a large amount of past tunes he can load into your particular EVO may very well have your car done in only 3 tunes.

Also if you are going to compare one companies tune to anothers please make sure that when you compare EVERYTHING is the same as the last time. You can't say you dyno'd 300 hp and 300 ft lbs at one guys shop and then added a set of cams and went back for a tune at another shop and you are happier because the car made another 25 whp. That's just not fair to any shop.

Also, as for comparing a custom flash to the AEM EMS. I will not recommend the AEM EMS or any other tuning tool to anyone until they have gone past Stage 3-4 with us. Al has proven to me time and time again that he can make the same power as a standalone up to those modifications. I can't suggest someone spends $2400 to add a standalone when they can have the ease of a custom tune. Now there are exceptions, like guys that need kick *** datalogging or whatever. The point is for a car with a stock turbo on it I say keep the stock computer and get a GOOD custom tune.

Thanks for allowing my input.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

[QUOTE=DynoFlash][QUOTE=anjapower] The other thing that swayed me to TT was that Al beats on the cars very hard after the tune...something I didn't want taking place again. I figured I had nothing to lose.
First I have to say I agree with AL on taking the car out on a test run. As I am the 3rd guy who went down with Anj to TT that day to get a flash. If my car was road tested after the tune TT would have seen that I was knocking like crazy. I went there with intentions of getting a flash so i could lose my Utec but Mark said my injectors were too big (750cc) so he couldnt flash my car. SO I already made the trip down there and wasnt happy with the Utec as it was so I had him re-tune the Utec so I didnt make the drive for no reason. As soon as I got back on the NJ turnpike my knock sensor was going crazy at full boost and it was too late to turn around. I did talk to Mark about this and he did offer to reflash my car if I picked up stock injectors for free. So I can say Mark is willing to fix the problem but still sucks that I need to drive to NJ again and waist a day. Im just waiting now for a response on a day I can get this done. BTW I have like every bolt on you could possibly do. I put down 8whp more than ANJ with MANY MANY more mods so I was kind of dissapointed as well.

 

In my humble opinion do not get caught with up numbers because they really don't mean much. They are some many variables in comparing dyno numbers its bananas and often worthless.

I feel you should have told turbo-trix how the car was right after the tune, and could have used the PM button before posting. Complaining on the net usually only makes things worse for both the service provider and customer.

Also I think TT tunes with a bit more hp and less torque while dynoflash tunes for more tq but less hp. The initial "explosion" you are feeling could just be the torque created from the tune.

Before you start really complaining why don't you get some solid track times and numbers and or contact TT.

Just like David Buschur said the car can be dailed in very quickly sometimes because don't forget Al and Mark from TT have done this so many times.

Road tunes are a great idea but NJ police is like the plague you want to avoid them at all times.

 

I agree the car can be dialed in after 3-4 pulls I have seen it done before and with great results David is right that they have soo many maps that they pretty much have most set ups down pat. Im not speaking in regards to ANJ but in my case im knocking at full boost with my Utec which was tuned by Mark. I was knocking before I even went to TT and was dissatisfied with Utec with intentions to get a custom flash from him but like I said i didnt realize my 750cc inejctors would be a issue. But in any case Mark said he would remedy my problem with a re-flash I just need stock injectors which does say alot to me about Mark although I havent heard back from my pm in a while

 

I posted in their forum first...in a very calm and collected manner. After seeing that they were ignoring my post, I decided to post this thread.

Anyway, that makes 3 cars that day that are all running either horrible or subpar.

I don't know, my experience with TT leaves much to be desired. I'd rather have a good running car that was driven hard by the tuner afterwards rather than a car that doesn't run well.

I can pretty much guarantee I won't get more than 107-108 for traps with this setup by how it drives on the road.

 

Your issue seems mechanical. Could be a small boost or exhaust leak that you're not fixing. Do a mechanical check before your next tune. You drive your car everyday and if something change you should notice it. I sense my car have either a small exhaust or boost leak abut I can't find it

 

why wouldn't the mechanical issue crop up on the dyno...it is obviously a tuning issue.

 

Look, tunes fall off, especially those that are aggressively tuned. Why, because you are tuned on a certain day with certain weather conditions such as temp and humidity. While your car may have put down a given number on that day doesn’t necessarily mean you're going to put down the same number on a different day. For example, say you were tuned during the summer for 21lb of boost on a MBC or EBC. By the wintertime your car will be pushing 24lbs - 25lbs of boost just because the air is denser. While your MBC/EBC is thinking its still running the normal 21lbs. So you'll be out driving around and feel the power cut at the top end and think "Hey, this tune sucks" when its just the ECU dumping fuel and pull timing to protect the motor. All because of a weather change. At the time of tuning just make sure that the car not being pushed to its very limit. A tune does need to have some play in it to compensate for the changes of the weather.

 

This statment is 100% FALSE

One of the best things about the stock ecu is that when you set it up properly the ecu can adjust the a/f through the MAF sesnsor to mainatin the tune through a large variation of wether conditions.

Of course - you dont want to tune it ultra agressive as the self adjusting ability has a margin of error of say plus or minus 10% accuracy. This is why I laugh when I see tuners who set up evos with 11.8 and 12.0 a/f ratios on pump gas.

The way I tune the evos for the street - with a 11.1 - 11.3 / 1 a/f there is NO WAY the customer is going to see ANY knock or detonation from weather changes. There is just too much of a saftey margin left on the table and there is a lot of fudge factor.

Back TWO YEARS ago and 2,000 evo ecus ago, the first BETA testers I did I had come back 3 weeks and 6 weeks after they were tuned for follow up testing. Despite huge temprature changes the tunes held almost 100% accurate. Some of these customers later came back after a year and the tunes were still dead on.


A perfecty example of this is the stock evo ecu tune which has a charateristic a/f curve which dumps rich after 5500 rpms but runs more lean through the middle of the piower band. I have done base pulls all over the USA through the dead of winter and the heat of summer at sea level and at mountains - all stock evos mainatin the same a;/f curve - regardless of the conditions.

They may get some SLIGHT variation on weather changes - but its not significant.


THE REAL PROBLEM with tunes that suddenly change when you go onto the street is that the tune is SET TOO AGRESSIVE with ultra lean a/f ratios and very high ignition advance. If you tune a car for maximum dyno power it is very possible that with the load of real street driving - (which is a greater load) - the car may start to knock. With a super lean a/f the knocking is not easily arrested by the stock ecu and it will keep pulling more and more timing until there is hardly any timing left. This results in very low tq, a rough power band and super high egts.

Anyone who doubts this theory only has to hook up a generic OBDII scan tool and do a log of the ignition timing on a 3rd or 4th gear pull. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

With a properly tuned ecu the ONLY ecu induced knock retard that occurs would be the result of a particularly bad batch of gas. In the case of a properly tuned ecu - it would take only one or two degrees of timing pulling to arrest the knock from some bad gas and you would probably only notice a slight loss of power. This is normal functionality of the stock ecu.

As far as boost variations which you mention, OF COURSE its important always to watch and adjust the boost to match current conditions. However, slight variations in boost level due to wether conditions are NOT going to effect a properly set up tune. In the case of my tunes for example, I tune them all at 1 - 2 psi over the desired target boost for daily driving. I adjust the tuning to keep the car totally knock free on pump gas with a 23 psi boost peak falling to 20 - 21 psi. This way when the customer drives with 21 psi peak boost on the street he has plenty of satfey margin left in the tune to prevent these kind of conditions.


I guess what I am saying is that I disagree with what you have suggested almost 100%

When I tune a evo ecu - you can take it out - drive it for two years, beat the heck out of it and your tune is never going to "change" or pull timing beyond a slight adjustment for fuel quality.

 

I thought TT's flash was more expensive that Al's. Did they lower price? They used to be $450.

Aside from that. What did you hear as Al "beating" on the cars afterwards. Do you consider going WOT beating on it? Al drove my car and we took it onto the highway and did a 2nd/3rd gear pull... he said it felt great (which it did!) and we went right back to the shop. Do you consider going full throttle beating on it? I dont!

 

TT was well under $300 for Anj and myself. WOT through the corners in wet weather is what Anj was speaking of. We both went to get the mail-ins done at the same time and both cars were driven the same. A few WOT 2-4th gear pulls is fine and totally understandable on the hwy.

 

Hey Al, yeah thats what I was trying to get too. I think what I was trying to get at is that weather plays a large roll on how a car "feels" from day-to-day. You can see slight power loss from a very hot and humid day versus a cool and low humidity day. Wouldn't you agree? Maybe 10-15whp? Back to what you were saying, I fully agree with you that you NEED a magin of safty for these cars.