Ted, I always respect your thoughts and Talon the same, but lets clear something up here REAL QUICK.

I have never said, NEVER, that we run less timing at higher boost levels to just say you can run 23psi. That is BS. So talon please fix your comments.
We have seen increases every time we tune the car 1 pound at a time. From 20-21-22-23-24. EVERYTIME. That is the way we work.
So please make sure that we are clear on this.
Also let me agree that we don't want to see poeple running more boost just to say it on an open forum. Thats BS.

There is a reason why our customers have powerful cars. It is in the tune and the time spent to make them that way with the proper tools.

I will assure everyone of this, there will be some incredible numbers comming out in the next few months just in time for the new season.
Just a hint , they wont all be from street cars either..................

 

I would fix my comments if I understood what needed to be fixed. I didn't say you run less timing just to SAY you can run 23psi. You asserted that my inability to run more than 21psi on pump gas was due to "an overly aggressive timing map." By logical deduction, that means you run higher psi on pump gas without knock by using less timing, no? My timing is pretty standard on pump gas as it climbs to 19-20 by 7000rpm. Perhaps that is aggressive timing, and I just don't realize it. I know that it's nowhere near as aggressive as the timing I see when on race gas when I am really hauling ***.

I wasn't aware that your customers were known for having powerful cars. I've been asking for examples in my other thread, but I've only gotten a few dyno results and no track results. Without track verification, we have no frame of reference on the dyno numbers. No one has claimed 11s on my setup with a flash on pump gas either. Your EcuTek-flashed IX would have been a great example, but it only got one incomplete run due to a missed shift.

 

I am very familiar with your setup. We have spoken online many times in many threads.
It is conservative. I guess your opinion of conservative, from what I am gathering is that 25 would be an extreme and 21 would be low. MY TUNES on 23 psi are conservative. ALL THE TIME. AEM EMS or EcuTek flash. Period.
I do not recommend any more that 24 on the street with anything less than 94 octane. Again I also understand that this number may not equate to redline rpm numbers as many do not have nor the turbo can keep up to those boost levels. There are many reasons for this, that directly and indirectly affect Volumetric Efficiency and the ability for the engine to release the energy at higher rpms. The engine can only process so much with the breathing capabilities it has. Thats another lesson another day.
The tunes are IMprofessionalO very safe.
You just need to know what this car needs in stock and modified form thruout the rpm band.

 

Likewise appreciated.

All I'm saying is that for any given setup and octane rating, there is a point whereby increasing the boost further is futile because any potential power increase that goes along with it is offset by the timing retard necessary needed to avoid detonation. Where this point lies varies from car to car, depending on a variety of influence factors that have to do with hardware, mechanical and electronic tuning, etc.

I don't know about any of the usual 'he said, she said' that floats around in here, I'm just posting some basic facts for the benefit of those interested.

 

Lets go over this again. This is exactly what you stated:
The "overly aggressive timing map" comment would tend to lead us to think that running the AFC would put you in a load bracket that you SHOULD NOT BE IN. At that point the computer is scrambling to do TWO things and then One more slow process. The first two will be take away as much timing as it can, regardless of whether it hears knock anymore, and add a boatload of fuel.
Thirdly it will try to add timing back into the equation slowly. The problem is that it wants to meet the load point that you are manipulating. It is a crude way to do it, but that is what we are dealing with.

Well two things. First you don't pay attention too much on this forum, Second NOT EVERYONE IS A DRAG KING. So what we are doing will solve this once and for all. Read between the lines. Or just wait patiently like everyone else.

 

^^so when are you coming to chicago to tune my car? i want 23 psi and a nice timing curve along with reliability for sure. i don't see why you could not run that high of boost as long as you are not pulling timing or blowing too hot of air.

 

You have always been and will continue to be a voice of reason on this forum. A great addition to this community.
Thank you for your comments.
I understand your points and agree with them.
I have done a ton of R&D on this car for a long time. That is why we didn't come out on this forum until we did. I have learned alot tuning this particualr make and the threshold in which we can work in.
Everyone needs to keep a couple things in mind. Just because the stock timing map is there an working well, does not mean it is optimal. In the same token it also does not mean that it is safe.
That is all we will say. When we map a car it is done to EVERY LOAD cell. Until we see what eefect we have had on power, A/F ratio, Boost threshold, Knock and EGT. We do this all day long. Not on one car but many. So if we come out with specifics, it isn't comming from our butts either...

 

We are actually going all over the country, its crazy. After vegas, Arizona, New Mexico, California, and Florida again this month alone. If anyone is interested in your area then set something up. We will be constantly traveling now. So chicago will come up soon.
We have many major projects that have to get finished as well, so we are doing the best we can..

 

FWIW, I ran 23psi on 93 oct with a respectable timing curve and no problems over a good several thousand miles, so there are definitely no problems in doing so - with competent tuning. There should be no debate where this is concerned.

 

Thank you Ted

 

I feel confident running high boost on pump gas.
i have lower compresssion 8.5:1
i have larger front mount
and stock 9.8 crap turbo.
AEM EMS - 750cc injectors.
and Nick tuning it
also HKS DLI2 now...and ALKY.

next season i'll be upgrading the turbo. But will not run as much boost as i would a stock turbo on my stock block. I remember the standard was 19.5 psi. "MBC set to 19.5-20psi."

 

From your track results, though, it doesn't appear you're making much power. Maybe 330whp Dynojet-equivalent. Do you have an AEM EMS and larger FMIC with stock cams? If so, then it's pretty good power, but if you have aftermarket cams, then it doesn't appear the higher boost is helping does it? Let me know if I'm missing something. I'm also assuming you just added the alky and haven't been to the track since adding it.

 

Yeah, I guess I don't pay attention. Oh well.

I'll await the results, but I'm most interested in daily driven cars with basic mods who are running this 23-24psi tune. Being a drag king is not required. Most of our local Evos have gone at least once to see what their car can do. Even those who aren't very good still get trap speeds that are indicative of the power being made. I'm not asking for good ETs, just trap speeds...

 

I mentioned the dyno results because that shows that 25 PSI does not cause knock. Your problems with the CFT dyno are getting out of hand. It's just a tool so we can tune the cars without killing ourselves on the street. I don't care how/if it is calibrated. If it bothers you so much go down to Orlando and have a talk with Rolo about his dyno.

I could have left it at 25psi but Jestr and Rolo felt more comfortable lowering it down a bit. They want a safe/conservative tune for their customers. No need to be pushing the envelope so high for daily driving.

Fact is you have been telling people anything over 21 psi unsafe from your own personal experice. You were running a untuned car with a SAFC which puts you on the wrong load/timing points. Your running to more timing than you should be at those load points on your ECU causing knock. 21-25PSI can all be attained with proper tuning on 93 octane. Hopefully you didn't cause to much damage to your engine with all the knock you were getting.

 

Not sure how it's getting out of hand. I just stated the truth. People come from there and boast about their numbers all the time. You have the numbers in your sig, so people think they can achieve the same thing on a real Mustang Dyno, then get really disappointed when they can't. They complain to that tuner or dyno owner who then ends up recalibrating his dyno to make customers happy and the trend continues. It's a vicious cycle.

Anyway, I don't think I caused damage from "all the knock I was getting," because I saw a little and turned the boost down. I have been driving daily like this for quite a while without knock and with the ability to run mid/low 12s on pump without cams. Sounds pretty decent to me. I have yet to see these 22-25psi tunes perform better, and that's what I keep asking to see. I know the S-AFC is the bottom of the barrel for tuning, so I'd expect to see people do much better with superior tuning devices...