Is it the MIVEC or Turbo????
Originally Posted by Bom's Evo
i think turbo makes more power. and the Mivec is about the spoolup. It drives alot nicer than 8's,
meaning, Theres no on/off boost spots.
meaning, Theres no on/off boost spots.
the mivec helps the spool which gets you earlier power, but has no affect on the top end really.
why do i make this assertion? because there are gains with cams. same car same day hte numbers DO GO UP. i don't care if this dynoed car did this on another day, fact is... if you put in cams the power goes up. which means that the mivec is least responsible for the top endedness of the 9. this means the rest is up to the turbo, unless they changed the exhaust or something which they didn't as this car still passes smog.
Originally Posted by TrinaBabe
What Mivec is: A poor companies idea to try to copy V-Tech... Vtech is two different cam lobes on each cam. It can switch from say a 262->280 at high revs. Actually useful.
Mivec is adjustable cam gears... at higher revs it adjusts your cam gears... its not going to make that big a difference.
The turbo is what makes 95% of the power. The MiVec tries to make the power output linear but really isnt going to give you much.
The different coolant passages in the head are interesting, I would like to see how it helps out with knock control.
Mivec is adjustable cam gears... at higher revs it adjusts your cam gears... its not going to make that big a difference.
The turbo is what makes 95% of the power. The MiVec tries to make the power output linear but really isnt going to give you much.
The different coolant passages in the head are interesting, I would like to see how it helps out with knock control.
Originally Posted by otbEVO
I'm certainly interested in the differences between the VIII and the IX just like everyone else so this topic is interesting, but when you try to say that Mitsu is less econo than Honda, you are on crack. Honda is and always will be a step ahead of Mitsubishi in engine tech and level of car refinement. No way to argue that I fear. They may not make a turbo factory motor, but they make plenty of motors that have over 100 hp/per liter N/A which is something I haven't seen Mitsubishi come up with. I have owned both Hondas (Type R and S2000) and now own the EVO so I respect both for what they are good at... you should do the same.
Originally Posted by TrinaBabe
I havent seen a Mitsubishi F1 yet either 
No offense to our own company.. I love my Mitsu, but the MiVec is junk. Yes its better than nothing but it doesnt seem that great to me. I mean for the autocrosser types, sure... it nice. But for power... no, it will not give you any more peak power, nor hold it any longer. In power cars with thier only goal of making and holding power, are going to use the gearing advance that gives them the most power and holds it the longest. If they dont gain the 20 horses at 3k then so be it... who races at 3k anyways
Again, not trying to be too mean about it but I dont like it. And as for Shiv finding huge power there... whats his fastest Evo? I know Shiv knows alot about the ECUs and such but doesnt seem like he gets into the real power cars much. Hes more of the tinkerer with stockish turbos trying to get that 12hp edge... Id rather get a bigger turbo and get another 100 Even if I only use half its potential I still got his 12 smoked.
No offense to our own company.. I love my Mitsu, but the MiVec is junk. Yes its better than nothing but it doesnt seem that great to me. I mean for the autocrosser types, sure... it nice. But for power... no, it will not give you any more peak power, nor hold it any longer. In power cars with thier only goal of making and holding power, are going to use the gearing advance that gives them the most power and holds it the longest. If they dont gain the 20 horses at 3k then so be it... who races at 3k anyways
Again, not trying to be too mean about it but I dont like it. And as for Shiv finding huge power there... whats his fastest Evo? I know Shiv knows alot about the ECUs and such but doesnt seem like he gets into the real power cars much. Hes more of the tinkerer with stockish turbos trying to get that 12hp edge... Id rather get a bigger turbo and get another 100
Even if I only use half its potential I still got his 12 smoked.
Originally Posted by Cloud
Are you forgetting about WRC? I don't see honda's in it. Our 4 wheel drive system in Jap and Europe are the best in the world. There is a reason why we dominate WRC. Honda's 4wd is embarressing compared to ours.
100 hp per a liter? Have you driven a s2k or a DC2? Their power down low is a non-existant. Even on the highway its mad sluggish compared to an Evo. Who cares about 100/per a liter when the final output is 200. And everyone knows here that on the issue of torque, there is no comparision.
Also the paint on my Evo is flawless and looks gorgeous. My 10 cents.
100 hp per a liter? Have you driven a s2k or a DC2? Their power down low is a non-existant. Even on the highway its mad sluggish compared to an Evo. Who cares about 100/per a liter when the final output is 200. And everyone knows here that on the issue of torque, there is no comparision.
Also the paint on my Evo is flawless and looks gorgeous. My 10 cents.
Originally Posted by SRT-TO-EVO
Sorry to break it to you but Nissan's awd ATTESSA system is the best. And Honda's are much more refined cars hence the reason why they last much longer and are much more reliable. But neither of those is stopping me from getting my IX.
Originally Posted by TrinaBabe
Is what I am getting as is peak performance... not midrange stuff. I dont see the point of midrange power in any type of "race-like" car. If you leave it stock, then great... it is a nice addition but try thinking of this.... almost every person modding thier car on this site has or wants to use cams... cams kill the low end and give it top end. That right there starts killing the MiVEC... now think of turbo upgrades... again, making the MiVEC pointless, or intake manifolds, etc, etc.... MOST aftermarket power parts are designed to make more power up high (And as a side effect, lower the midrange power). If people dont mind doing this, then why care about MiVEC?
Its just pointless for people to really think this is some great addition. What do they honestly expect the MiVEC to do for them? Its not going to give them some advantage... maybe on a bone stock car but even then... in a race it wont matter because you shouldnt be driving under 5k anyways if racing. If you mod the car it will make it worse, you need to try to find someone to custom make you a cam as opposed to us which have our choices from tons of different cams.
Its just pointless for people to really think this is some great addition. What do they honestly expect the MiVEC to do for them? Its not going to give them some advantage... maybe on a bone stock car but even then... in a race it wont matter because you shouldnt be driving under 5k anyways if racing. If you mod the car it will make it worse, you need to try to find someone to custom make you a cam as opposed to us which have our choices from tons of different cams.
Last edited by trinydex; Feb 15, 2006 at 05:31 AM.
Originally Posted by adx
Way up here in Colorado, my brother and I dyno'd both our Evos to determine if there was a big difference. There has been many claims, our 05 pulls harder than our 06 MR. Driving or riding shotgun. I personally dont feel a difference but we shall let the dyno tell us the truth. Unfortunately, I cant post up the dyno sheets... no scanner.
First up was the 06 MR. With a peak of 17.5 psi, it blasted out a 253whp - 254wtq. Ran it 3 times to make sure it was consistent and each time it posted within 2whp and 1wtq.
Next the 05. With a peak of 18.4 psi, it spun the rollers to a 251whp - 268wtq. Again, ran 3 times for consistentcy.
Both runs on a SuperFlow AWD dyno. It was altitude corrected. Both cars are stock except they both have the Ingalls Stiffy. On the highway (short bursts.. nothing overly illegal
) the 05 pulls on the 06 slightly. Maybe a bumper length (2 feet at the most).
Both cars drive the same to me, except in the 06 Im banging through the gears faster.
First up was the 06 MR. With a peak of 17.5 psi, it blasted out a 253whp - 254wtq. Ran it 3 times to make sure it was consistent and each time it posted within 2whp and 1wtq.
Next the 05. With a peak of 18.4 psi, it spun the rollers to a 251whp - 268wtq. Again, ran 3 times for consistentcy.
Both runs on a SuperFlow AWD dyno. It was altitude corrected. Both cars are stock except they both have the Ingalls Stiffy. On the highway (short bursts.. nothing overly illegal
) the 05 pulls on the 06 slightly. Maybe a bumper length (2 feet at the most).Both cars drive the same to me, except in the 06 Im banging through the gears faster.
Originally Posted by Trojan man
SaabTuner, now i think we're arguing the same point.
Obviously there are more variables to take into consideration in cam selection than just desired rpm for peak power. I didn't think i needed to state that those were held fixed in this discussion on peak horsepower which trinababe had brought up and i continued. Also i couldn't agree with you more that the off the shelf cams are an "80% solution" to maximizing a setup.
The fact still remains that vanos, v-tec, mivec, et al are considered fuel saving and driveability aids, not power aids. The exact same peak power numbers could be reached using the "max" cam profile or valve overlap from those systems.
PD, I have read in other threads that the mivec advance is essentially at maximum value around 5000rpms (essentially making it fixed at that advance point) at WOT, are you saying that mivec continues to vary timing through to redline? That is the first I have heard this, albeit I have not been studying and testing as long as you guys.
Rcebwl, i'm not surprised that bmw guys love vanos anyomre than honda guys love them some v-tec, toyo guys love their stuff, and domestic guys can't get enough of their single cams. Obviously each system has pros and cons. None of that changes the fact that mivec is a non-contributor to top-end power, and only a moderate contributor (when compared to the possible full cam profile/intake runner changes that other systems currenlty use) to the low and mid range power curve. [/book]
Obviously there are more variables to take into consideration in cam selection than just desired rpm for peak power. I didn't think i needed to state that those were held fixed in this discussion on peak horsepower which trinababe had brought up and i continued. Also i couldn't agree with you more that the off the shelf cams are an "80% solution" to maximizing a setup.
The fact still remains that vanos, v-tec, mivec, et al are considered fuel saving and driveability aids, not power aids. The exact same peak power numbers could be reached using the "max" cam profile or valve overlap from those systems.
PD, I have read in other threads that the mivec advance is essentially at maximum value around 5000rpms (essentially making it fixed at that advance point) at WOT, are you saying that mivec continues to vary timing through to redline? That is the first I have heard this, albeit I have not been studying and testing as long as you guys.
Rcebwl, i'm not surprised that bmw guys love vanos anyomre than honda guys love them some v-tec, toyo guys love their stuff, and domestic guys can't get enough of their single cams. Obviously each system has pros and cons. None of that changes the fact that mivec is a non-contributor to top-end power, and only a moderate contributor (when compared to the possible full cam profile/intake runner changes that other systems currenlty use) to the low and mid range power curve. [/book]
wait... there's pros to pushrods? i love ls1 powered cars but i wish they'd stop using push sticks and finally put some dohc action on there with 7 valves per cylinder cuz i'm positive they can fit that many HAHA.
Last edited by trinydex; Feb 15, 2006 at 05:40 AM.
Well I dont know what to say. My point was that so many people put cams in thier cars and everything else trying to get HP up higher and hold it longer they obviously dont care that much about low end power.
The MiVEC may help with spoolup and and idling with large cams but honestly.... how much does it help and how much should someone care? I idle my car at around 1200... put square cams in it and Im sure it will still idle fine
If I could do it all over again would I choose the MiVEC and have zero choices for cams or use the non-MiVEC and choose from tons of cam grinds.... let me think....
And its even funnier when you said these V-TEC people after going farther and farther into the boosted 4g63 terrirtory start switching to more of "our" type stuff and ditch the V-TECH. The V-TECH is a better way of doing it. Combine V-TECH with variable valve timing and you got both... but who cares. The ECU tuning nightmare that would ensue would not be worth any of it IMO.
Again, this is all my opinion... none of it has a truth or false. Its just what I believe. Personally Ill bet that people that get serious about making power with thier nines switch to the 8 head. Time will tell, I could be wrong.
The MiVEC may help with spoolup and and idling with large cams but honestly.... how much does it help and how much should someone care? I idle my car at around 1200... put square cams in it and Im sure it will still idle fine
If I could do it all over again would I choose the MiVEC and have zero choices for cams or use the non-MiVEC and choose from tons of cam grinds.... let me think....
And its even funnier when you said these V-TEC people after going farther and farther into the boosted 4g63 terrirtory start switching to more of "our" type stuff and ditch the V-TECH. The V-TECH is a better way of doing it. Combine V-TECH with variable valve timing and you got both... but who cares. The ECU tuning nightmare that would ensue would not be worth any of it IMO.
Again, this is all my opinion... none of it has a truth or false. Its just what I believe. Personally Ill bet that people that get serious about making power with thier nines switch to the 8 head. Time will tell, I could be wrong.
Originally Posted by Cloud
Are you forgetting about WRC? I don't see honda's in it. Our 4 wheel drive system in Jap and Europe are the best in the world. There is a reason why we dominate WRC. Honda's 4wd is embarressing compared to ours.
100 hp per a liter? Have you driven a s2k or a DC2? Their power down low is a non-existant. Even on the highway its mad sluggish compared to an Evo. Who cares about 100/per a liter when the final output is 200. And everyone knows here that on the issue of torque, there is no comparision.
100 hp per a liter? Have you driven a s2k or a DC2? Their power down low is a non-existant. Even on the highway its mad sluggish compared to an Evo. Who cares about 100/per a liter when the final output is 200. And everyone knows here that on the issue of torque, there is no comparision.
Originally Posted by otbEVO
What do you think is a more impressive display of manufacturing ability... Competitive/ championship winning cars in F1 and IRL or cars that haven't won a manufacturers championship recently in WRC (hardly domination in recent years) I'm not knocking either Mitsubisihi or Honda as I have had both (also...read, yes I have had the DC2 Type R and an S2000) but you're comparing apples to oranges. Mitsubishi focuses on off road type racing (WRC, Dakar, etc...) Honda's focus is road racing (F1, IRL, etc...). Lastly, if you've ever driven a Type R or an S2000 you know that those cars live above 6000 rpm, to think otherwise is stupid. Nobody boasts about low-end on a Honda unless they are foolish. Please speak up when you do a bit of research or have personal experience to speak of.
Even when the s2k is on the highway in high rpms, it still gets blown out. Your not the only one who's had a honda in their lifetime. I've had 4 heavily modified ones before I came to the Evo.
I'm not only taking about straight line, I'm talking about the complete package.
I agree with you, the s2k is a cornering machine, but don't forget that the Evo's in the rest of the world corner a lot better with SAYC.
But I believe the Evo > S2k as a complete car. (Power, power delivery, handling,
comfort, brakeing, ect.) Especially for people who are 6 foot and above. Its really
hard to fit into one.
BTW. (Back on topic) I think its a combination of mivec and the turbo. The mivec helps the turbo spool faster, and increases the midrange power. And even if you switch the cams, the car with mivec will make more power then a car without mivec with the same cams.
I agree with you, the s2k is a cornering machine, but don't forget that the Evo's in the rest of the world corner a lot better with SAYC.
But I believe the Evo > S2k as a complete car. (Power, power delivery, handling,
comfort, brakeing, ect.) Especially for people who are 6 foot and above. Its really
hard to fit into one.
BTW. (Back on topic) I think its a combination of mivec and the turbo. The mivec helps the turbo spool faster, and increases the midrange power. And even if you switch the cams, the car with mivec will make more power then a car without mivec with the same cams.
Last edited by Cloud; Feb 15, 2006 at 12:16 PM.
Originally Posted by TrinaBabe
it will not reliably be able to produce anything over a 2% gain. Thats my best guess and I dont know much about it. I do know what it takes to make power and more time is spent ensuring everything else is tuned and working properly... worrying about the MiVEC stuff would just hinder people.
EVOIXs are already making 50 WHP more at 7K RPM just from a tune alone.
Originally Posted by Az3ar
If you don't know much about it then don't post as a fact "produce anything over a 2%"
EVOIXs are already making 50 WHP more at 7K RPM just from a tune alone.
EVOIXs are already making 50 WHP more at 7K RPM just from a tune alone.
"worrying about mivec will hinder people" by Trinababe
I doubt that any tuner such as Shiv, Al, Ams, ect will agree with you on that
Since they all know tuning the Mivec shows gains.
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: FoCo, Colorado
Originally Posted by TrinaBabe
What Mivec is: A poor companies idea to try to copy V-Tech... Vtech is two different cam lobes on each cam. It can switch from say a 262->280 at high revs. Actually useful.
Mivec is adjustable cam gears... at higher revs it adjusts your cam gears... its not going to make that big a difference.
The turbo is what makes 95% of the power. The MiVec tries to make the power output linear but really isnt going to give you much.
The different coolant passages in the head are interesting, I would like to see how it helps out with knock control.
Mivec is adjustable cam gears... at higher revs it adjusts your cam gears... its not going to make that big a difference.
The turbo is what makes 95% of the power. The MiVec tries to make the power output linear but really isnt going to give you much.
The different coolant passages in the head are interesting, I would like to see how it helps out with knock control.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 59
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I know iam a bit late posting into this thread but i will give my 02 anyway!
Imo the evo 9 is going to be alot better at auto cross then then any evo 8. The power seems to be instant and is very smooth... It seems to have power even low in the rpm wich is good.
As far as drag raceing goes i think the 9 will be good up untill a point. Yea the mivec is good but i think it will be a handicap when they want big hp. I mean yea the mivec is makeing sick power with the stock 9 turbo. but i would like to see how it would handle a gt30 or gt35R. I think the evo 8 will have it beat when it comes to drag raceing. until they get the mivec sorted out anyway.
I was honestly thinking about tradeing in my 05 mr for the new 9. But when i thought about it i think the 8 would suit my future power needs. with either car iam getting rid of the stock turbo ect. And being able to choose from a million different cams will be my benifit.
Imo the evo 9 is going to be alot better at auto cross then then any evo 8. The power seems to be instant and is very smooth... It seems to have power even low in the rpm wich is good.
As far as drag raceing goes i think the 9 will be good up untill a point. Yea the mivec is good but i think it will be a handicap when they want big hp. I mean yea the mivec is makeing sick power with the stock 9 turbo. but i would like to see how it would handle a gt30 or gt35R. I think the evo 8 will have it beat when it comes to drag raceing. until they get the mivec sorted out anyway.
I was honestly thinking about tradeing in my 05 mr for the new 9. But when i thought about it i think the 8 would suit my future power needs. with either car iam getting rid of the stock turbo ect. And being able to choose from a million different cams will be my benifit.
Originally Posted by 300whpwrx
I know iam a bit late posting into this thread but i will give my 02 anyway!
Imo the evo 9 is going to be alot better at auto cross then then any evo 8. The power seems to be instant and is very smooth... It seems to have power even low in the rpm wich is good.
As far as drag raceing goes i think the 9 will be good up untill a point. Yea the mivec is good but i think it will be a handicap when they want big hp. I mean yea the mivec is makeing sick power with the stock 9 turbo. but i would like to see how it would handle a gt30 or gt35R. I think the evo 8 will have it beat when it comes to drag raceing. until they get the mivec sorted out anyway.
I was honestly thinking about tradeing in my 05 mr for the new 9. But when i thought about it i think the 8 would suit my future power needs. with either car iam getting rid of the stock turbo ect. And being able to choose from a million different cams will be my benifit.
Imo the evo 9 is going to be alot better at auto cross then then any evo 8. The power seems to be instant and is very smooth... It seems to have power even low in the rpm wich is good.
As far as drag raceing goes i think the 9 will be good up untill a point. Yea the mivec is good but i think it will be a handicap when they want big hp. I mean yea the mivec is makeing sick power with the stock 9 turbo. but i would like to see how it would handle a gt30 or gt35R. I think the evo 8 will have it beat when it comes to drag raceing. until they get the mivec sorted out anyway.
I was honestly thinking about tradeing in my 05 mr for the new 9. But when i thought about it i think the 8 would suit my future power needs. with either car iam getting rid of the stock turbo ect. And being able to choose from a million different cams will be my benifit.
For now, the stock turbo results are there and there is no reason to think that the Mivec will cause an issue. However, the EVO is a track car not a drag car and hey if you like a Gt30 turbo then I think it will still make power more than the 8 but when it comes to GT35 and Gt37 I am not sure. In theory it should not cause any issues but again we don’t know.
The reason I bought the 9 and many others did because it’s the most complete EVO in STOCK form. I don’t want to touch it because it has good power stock and I want to keep my 100K warranty. Gt35 will be sweet but do you know how much low end power you loose in return? It’s like you loose 100WHP on low end to gain it on top end???? Does not make sense to me except for drag racing.
Anyways, we are off topic now but I am against after market turbos regardless of the size or the model.