Evo 8-9.8 vs Evo 9 turbo Dyno results
Triny, what exactly are you referring to? I don't think I know what you're referring to on any of your points. Can you clarify each of these for me?
1) "Sponsor" is not a difficult word to spell, btw. Ok, what is your point in regards to Buschur not making a wheel? I don't understand what that has to do with anything or why it's bad for him to sell a turbo he didn't "make"? I'm not aware of regular vendors physically building their own turbos, but if that's the norm, then I admit ignorance.
2) Ok, Gruppe-S made more power with a 9 turbo over an 8 turbo with a retune. What does that have to do with my comment that you quoted? I don't see any relevance. I agree that the stock IX makes more power, but you quoted me telling Dr. Mr that we're not talking about 20G's in this thread. What is the correlation?
3) When did Dave say to do an SAFC + flash? When did ANYONE say to do that? Did I miss something? The thread originator is getting reflashed when Al comes to Utah in June. In the meantime, he used his SAFC to do some fine-tuning. Please tell me what you were referring to when you wrote this.
4) I don't use an SAFC. I'm custom flashed for my setup with alky. I used to use an SAFC for race gas tuning at the track.
5) Injectors? Only need injectors if you're using JUST an SAFC, which no one here is doing in this conversation, so it's irrelevant.
6) Yes, I agree that until he gets reflashed, the numbers are inconclusive. This part makes absolute sense, but I have no idea what you were talking about up until this point.
Kimletrim, I hope you were only "agreed wholeheartedly" to the last point he made (#6 here). The rest is whacky.
1) "Sponsor" is not a difficult word to spell, btw. Ok, what is your point in regards to Buschur not making a wheel? I don't understand what that has to do with anything or why it's bad for him to sell a turbo he didn't "make"? I'm not aware of regular vendors physically building their own turbos, but if that's the norm, then I admit ignorance.
2) Ok, Gruppe-S made more power with a 9 turbo over an 8 turbo with a retune. What does that have to do with my comment that you quoted? I don't see any relevance. I agree that the stock IX makes more power, but you quoted me telling Dr. Mr that we're not talking about 20G's in this thread. What is the correlation?
3) When did Dave say to do an SAFC + flash? When did ANYONE say to do that? Did I miss something? The thread originator is getting reflashed when Al comes to Utah in June. In the meantime, he used his SAFC to do some fine-tuning. Please tell me what you were referring to when you wrote this.
4) I don't use an SAFC. I'm custom flashed for my setup with alky. I used to use an SAFC for race gas tuning at the track.
5) Injectors? Only need injectors if you're using JUST an SAFC, which no one here is doing in this conversation, so it's irrelevant.
6) Yes, I agree that until he gets reflashed, the numbers are inconclusive. This part makes absolute sense, but I have no idea what you were talking about up until this point.
Kimletrim, I hope you were only "agreed wholeheartedly" to the last point he made (#6 here). The rest is whacky.
Originally Posted by Warrtalon
Triny, what exactly are you referring to? I don't think I know what you're referring to on any of your points. Can you clarify each of these for me?
1) "Sponsor" is not a difficult word to spell, btw. Ok, what is your point in regards to Buschur not making a wheel? I don't understand what that has to do with anything or why it's bad for him to sell a turbo he didn't "make"? I'm not aware of regular vendors physically building their own turbos, but if that's the norm, then I admit ignorance.
2) Ok, Gruppe-S made more power with a 9 turbo over an 8 turbo with a retune. What does that have to do with my comment that you quoted? I don't see any relevance. I agree that the stock IX makes more power, but you quoted me telling Dr. Mr that we're not talking about 20G's in this thread. What is the correlation?
3) When did Dave say to do an SAFC + flash? When did ANYONE say to do that? Did I miss something? The thread originator is getting reflashed when Al comes to Utah in June. In the meantime, he used his SAFC to do some fine-tuning. Please tell me what you were referring to when you wrote this.
4) I don't use an SAFC. I'm custom flashed for my setup with alky. I used to use an SAFC for race gas tuning at the track.
5) Injectors? Only need injectors if you're using JUST an SAFC, which no one here is doing in this conversation, so it's irrelevant.
6) Yes, I agree that until he gets reflashed, the numbers are inconclusive. This part makes absolute sense, but I have no idea what you were talking about up until this point.
Kimletrim, I hope you were only "agreed wholeheartedly" to the last point he made (#6 here). The rest is whacky.
1) "Sponsor" is not a difficult word to spell, btw. Ok, what is your point in regards to Buschur not making a wheel? I don't understand what that has to do with anything or why it's bad for him to sell a turbo he didn't "make"? I'm not aware of regular vendors physically building their own turbos, but if that's the norm, then I admit ignorance.
2) Ok, Gruppe-S made more power with a 9 turbo over an 8 turbo with a retune. What does that have to do with my comment that you quoted? I don't see any relevance. I agree that the stock IX makes more power, but you quoted me telling Dr. Mr that we're not talking about 20G's in this thread. What is the correlation?
3) When did Dave say to do an SAFC + flash? When did ANYONE say to do that? Did I miss something? The thread originator is getting reflashed when Al comes to Utah in June. In the meantime, he used his SAFC to do some fine-tuning. Please tell me what you were referring to when you wrote this.
4) I don't use an SAFC. I'm custom flashed for my setup with alky. I used to use an SAFC for race gas tuning at the track.
5) Injectors? Only need injectors if you're using JUST an SAFC, which no one here is doing in this conversation, so it's irrelevant.
6) Yes, I agree that until he gets reflashed, the numbers are inconclusive. This part makes absolute sense, but I have no idea what you were talking about up until this point.
Kimletrim, I hope you were only "agreed wholeheartedly" to the last point he made (#6 here). The rest is whacky.
2) i must have misunderstood your post...
Originally Posted by Warrtalon
DR MR, they are talking about the stock IX, not the 20g-IX. Of course your 20g-IX will add HP and TQ...
3) oops sorry... al, but you know... dave/al sometimes i forget the difference. although i will openly admit that dave posts better stuff than al and i bet sometimes he wishes that al wouldn't speak on everyone else's behalf.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
The use of a SAFC over the flash to fine tune the fuel trims to match the individual car is a real winner for sure.
In fact some of the fastest evos run just that combo - i have several customers in the 11 second club with that set up
The reason why it is so effective is that with a close base map you dont need to make large SAFC corrections to dial in the right a/f and thus the ECU is reading a more accurate LOAD reference which does not result in overly advanced ignition timing. Also the more performance orientated ingition tables on the base Dyno Flash are a huge improvement over the stock maps
Again - I dont think 12.0 at 2700 is an issue but if you want it richer just send it in and I will make a free correction
In fact some of the fastest evos run just that combo - i have several customers in the 11 second club with that set up
The reason why it is so effective is that with a close base map you dont need to make large SAFC corrections to dial in the right a/f and thus the ECU is reading a more accurate LOAD reference which does not result in overly advanced ignition timing. Also the more performance orientated ingition tables on the base Dyno Flash are a huge improvement over the stock maps
Again - I dont think 12.0 at 2700 is an issue but if you want it richer just send it in and I will make a free correction
4) the used to part was what i was referring to, i wanted to cya in case you wanted to talk about how the safc is great for map switching, which it is....
5) yes, injectors should be used with an safc only package. but this is relavent to what i said earlier... safc+flash is bad idea. AND it has relavence precisely because THAT'S WHAT THE OP IS RUNNING, remember... this isn't YOUR thread, we're discussin' homeboy's setup.
in the end i'm just pointing out some useful information... i don't wanna see people mucking with safc on top of flashes as that's not the way to go. if you're paying and going through the trouble of a flash, you should get that flash and it should be perfect. i don't believe in mail ins and using an safc to correct your mail in flash is either gonna add more timing or take away timing because that's the nature of the safc/mitsu ecu's tuning. that's why i said either do safc+injectors, or do a straight up flash. anything in between and you're leaving power on the table and compromising safety.
Last edited by trinydex; May 2, 2006 at 12:48 AM.
#59, trinidex. Not sure what you meant by, "I don't care what Buschur says" but it seemed to be referring to us saying to use a flash WITH an AFC. If that is what you meant we DO NOT RECOMMEND using a flash with an AFC for fine tuning. Our AFC sales are just about non-existent anymore. When a car comes here with an AFC on it we recommend either removing it for a flash or setting it all to "0's" and then flashing the car. We do not recommend using it for fine tuning, the flash takes care of the tune and the AFC should just be removed and sold.
BTW, I have not tested the EVO9 back to back with an EVO8 turbo. I can tell you that the same things happens to the EVO9 turbo in high boost though. Both the EVO9 and EVO8 turbos run out of power up top at high boost levels. What I mean is both of the turbos say will make 300 whp at 22 psi. (this is just an example with basic numbers being used) Then at 30 psi may make 340 whp. The same situation using our 20g-9-5 turbo at 30 psi will make 375 whp. The 20g-9-5 turbo makes a lot more power at high boost over the EVO9 and EVO8 turbos.
This dyno proves nothing about the EVO8 turbo vs the EVO9. The huge gains can basically be attributed to the 02 housing (which has seen 13whp gains alone) and the 10.5 which is a solid 10-15whp.
When someone does a back to back of the EVO9 vs the EVO8 with 10.5 and same 02 housing, that will tell us a difference, however I dont think its going to be much at all. Id just buy the 10.5, I wouldnt waste $ on an EVO9 turbo for 600.
When someone does a back to back of the EVO9 vs the EVO8 with 10.5 and same 02 housing, that will tell us a difference, however I dont think its going to be much at all. Id just buy the 10.5, I wouldnt waste $ on an EVO9 turbo for 600.
Triny, you miss the point of why people get a base flash then use an SAFC for fine tuning. They do it for these reasons:
1) No access to a custom tune due to location and/or timing, which leads to
2) Much easier and better to get a base flash through the mail for $199, then make small SAFC adjustments than it is to buy a whole set of injectors for no good reason, install them, then deal with STFTs and LTFTs at low throttle then having to highly manipulate the MAF to get the proper hi throttle settings with a lot of fuel removed and uncontrollable timing.
3) With the base flash, they get all the great flash features that an SAFC can never give them
I went 12.26 on my base flash on 93oct, then 12.000 on the very next run with race gas and my safc fine tuning. I'd say it's a VERY GOOD method for those who don't have the opportunity to get custom tuned. However, we always recommend a full custom tune to people on tuning trips.
1) No access to a custom tune due to location and/or timing, which leads to
2) Much easier and better to get a base flash through the mail for $199, then make small SAFC adjustments than it is to buy a whole set of injectors for no good reason, install them, then deal with STFTs and LTFTs at low throttle then having to highly manipulate the MAF to get the proper hi throttle settings with a lot of fuel removed and uncontrollable timing.
3) With the base flash, they get all the great flash features that an SAFC can never give them
I went 12.26 on my base flash on 93oct, then 12.000 on the very next run with race gas and my safc fine tuning. I'd say it's a VERY GOOD method for those who don't have the opportunity to get custom tuned. However, we always recommend a full custom tune to people on tuning trips.
Wow, this thread has gone crazy. Anyway, I know an SAFC on top of a flash is not the best tune for the car. It is just holding me over another month or so before Al gets here.
Originally Posted by scott88vr6
We will not see the full results until a reflash has been done
I'm faster than everyone who has posted in this thread! Scott88vr6 for sure. Simmer down folks. Scott spent some money, and made MORE power. That's all he really cares about. So cool, I'm still cooler than him though and I'm on a 9.8 based turbo.
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
#59, trinidex. Not sure what you meant by, "I don't care what Buschur says" but it seemed to be referring to us saying to use a flash WITH an AFC. If that is what you meant we DO NOT RECOMMEND using a flash with an AFC for fine tuning. Our AFC sales are just about non-existent anymore. When a car comes here with an AFC on it we recommend either removing it for a flash or setting it all to "0's" and then flashing the car. We do not recommend using it for fine tuning, the flash takes care of the tune and the AFC should just be removed and sold.
Originally Posted by Warrtalon
Triny, you miss the point of why people get a base flash then use an SAFC for fine tuning. They do it for these reasons:
1) No access to a custom tune due to location and/or timing, which leads to
2) Much easier and better to get a base flash through the mail for $199, then make small SAFC adjustments than it is to buy a whole set of injectors for no good reason, install them, then deal with STFTs and LTFTs at low throttle then having to highly manipulate the MAF to get the proper hi throttle settings with a lot of fuel removed and uncontrollable timing.
3) With the base flash, they get all the great flash features that an SAFC can never give them
I went 12.26 on my base flash on 93oct, then 12.000 on the very next run with race gas and my safc fine tuning. I'd say it's a VERY GOOD method for those who don't have the opportunity to get custom tuned. However, we always recommend a full custom tune to people on tuning trips.
1) No access to a custom tune due to location and/or timing, which leads to
2) Much easier and better to get a base flash through the mail for $199, then make small SAFC adjustments than it is to buy a whole set of injectors for no good reason, install them, then deal with STFTs and LTFTs at low throttle then having to highly manipulate the MAF to get the proper hi throttle settings with a lot of fuel removed and uncontrollable timing.
3) With the base flash, they get all the great flash features that an SAFC can never give them
I went 12.26 on my base flash on 93oct, then 12.000 on the very next run with race gas and my safc fine tuning. I'd say it's a VERY GOOD method for those who don't have the opportunity to get custom tuned. However, we always recommend a full custom tune to people on tuning trips.