Back to back testing of Invidia, Ebay and Works 02 housings......
Originally Posted by Mike@Forge
You guys can argue your points trying to convince the other of your argument until you're blue in the face, I couldn't care less, however, matters of perceived value and the price someone is willing to pay for a given product are ENTIRELY functions of personal opinions, preferences and prejudices, so NO ONE is going to view things the same way.
It's all arbitrary based on who you're asking and what color socks they're wearing that day.
The power levels are almost completely irrelevant to the cost arguement. Yes, David provided a baseline/control and his tests, and thank god for him stepping up to the task, however, if AMS (used for sake of argument) posted dyno figures of the EXACT same test, conducted under virtually identical conditions, yet they saw different results, or even the same placement of the products in the "horsepower hierarchy" but with different actual numbers, this forum would be in an uproar over why, and for no good reason. Different car, different day, different dyno, different tuning, different complimentary modifications, yada, yada, yada.
People should buy what fits ALL of their own personal requirements for cost, quality, fitment, performance, reliability, etc. and completely ignore useless comparisons based solely on the personal opinions of the individuals providing the comparison.
David's test provideds great information, no doubt, but it is only ONE factor for each individual to consider when they are making their personal choice to spend their money how they so choose, which should mean nothing to the rest of us.
It's simple economics.
What trade off's/sacrifices is one person willing to make to get what they want.
- You can't use the OEM housing (unmodified) and expect to make lots of power.
- You can't buy the Works housing and expect a price less than $450 (whether you think it's fair or not), but you'll get some added engineering.
- You can't use the eBay housing and expect the addition of a support bracket or the highest quality manufacturing or materials.
- If you buy the eBay housing, you run the risk of potentially having to replace it later on, though at a lower price point than the competition.
- If you buy a more expensive housing, you will spend more money up front, but are all but assured of not needing to replace it.
etc. etc. etc. etc.
Personally, I'm going to port and coat the stock housing, but what each of the rest of you decides to do is up to you, and I don't care to read any more arguements about it!
It's all arbitrary based on who you're asking and what color socks they're wearing that day.
The power levels are almost completely irrelevant to the cost arguement. Yes, David provided a baseline/control and his tests, and thank god for him stepping up to the task, however, if AMS (used for sake of argument) posted dyno figures of the EXACT same test, conducted under virtually identical conditions, yet they saw different results, or even the same placement of the products in the "horsepower hierarchy" but with different actual numbers, this forum would be in an uproar over why, and for no good reason. Different car, different day, different dyno, different tuning, different complimentary modifications, yada, yada, yada.
People should buy what fits ALL of their own personal requirements for cost, quality, fitment, performance, reliability, etc. and completely ignore useless comparisons based solely on the personal opinions of the individuals providing the comparison.
David's test provideds great information, no doubt, but it is only ONE factor for each individual to consider when they are making their personal choice to spend their money how they so choose, which should mean nothing to the rest of us.
It's simple economics.
What trade off's/sacrifices is one person willing to make to get what they want.
- You can't use the OEM housing (unmodified) and expect to make lots of power.
- You can't buy the Works housing and expect a price less than $450 (whether you think it's fair or not), but you'll get some added engineering.
- You can't use the eBay housing and expect the addition of a support bracket or the highest quality manufacturing or materials.
- If you buy the eBay housing, you run the risk of potentially having to replace it later on, though at a lower price point than the competition.
- If you buy a more expensive housing, you will spend more money up front, but are all but assured of not needing to replace it.
etc. etc. etc. etc.
Personally, I'm going to port and coat the stock housing, but what each of the rest of you decides to do is up to you, and I don't care to read any more arguements about it!
I have a WORKS TBE and all I have to say about why people buy WORKS is this......
Some people buy White Wolf, some people buy Sky, and some people buy Grey Goose.
Im one of those people that buy Grey Goose.
ps. Not gonna buy any brand O2 housing.
Some people buy White Wolf, some people buy Sky, and some people buy Grey Goose.
Im one of those people that buy Grey Goose.
ps. Not gonna buy any brand O2 housing.
Last edited by Evo_Jay; Jun 29, 2006 at 01:04 AM.
Originally Posted by Evo_Kid
I have a WORKS TBE and all I have to say about why people buy WORKS is this......
Some people buy White Wolf, some people buy Sky, and some people buy Gray Goose.
Im one of those people that buy Gray Goose.
Some people buy White Wolf, some people buy Sky, and some people buy Gray Goose.
Im one of those people that buy Gray Goose.
Ah, makes sense. As I drink GREY GOOSE. Sorry couldn't resist..
Originally Posted by byt
Ah, makes sense. As I drink GREY GOOSE. Sorry couldn't resist..
Originally Posted by elhalisf
would you like me to take a picture of it on there with the SS O2 housing?
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
All of the runs were done starting at the same coolant temp, 162 degrees, a pull was made, datalog was saved and then another run was done immediately. So 2 back to back runs for each part, then the car was shut off and the parts were changed.
I did all runs in 3rd gear, sat at a steady state cruise in 3rd gear at exactly 2,000 rpm, when the coolant temps reached 162 degrees I'd go to WOT. The dyno recorded from 3,000 rpm to 7,000 rpm.
Below is the dyno sheet. It isn't difficult to read if you take a look at the numbers at the bottom. I took the best pull of the two for each part. Run #1 results are of the Ebay style housing, #2 is the Works and #3 is the Invidia.
You will notice peak boost was 34.8 psi the Ebay, 34.5 on the Works and 34.3 on the Invidia. IF someone wants to attack me for .5 psi feel free. I am using the AEM boost controller and nothing was touched.
I did all runs in 3rd gear, sat at a steady state cruise in 3rd gear at exactly 2,000 rpm, when the coolant temps reached 162 degrees I'd go to WOT. The dyno recorded from 3,000 rpm to 7,000 rpm.
Below is the dyno sheet. It isn't difficult to read if you take a look at the numbers at the bottom. I took the best pull of the two for each part. Run #1 results are of the Ebay style housing, #2 is the Works and #3 is the Invidia.
You will notice peak boost was 34.8 psi the Ebay, 34.5 on the Works and 34.3 on the Invidia. IF someone wants to attack me for .5 psi feel free. I am using the AEM boost controller and nothing was touched.
David, I am wondering why you made such a point to sat there was only a variation of .3 lbs of boost, when in fact it is grater throught the whole band.
I f you look at the black band boost line, the seperation between the e-bay and works is a 1.1lb difference between the start to the 300rpms to 6250 rpms
It is a grater differnce for the invidia 1.5lbs through the whole way.
It is only at peak boost that you have a .3-5 lb difference. at 4490 RPMS before and after that we see the steep difference in boost matter of fact it could be greater at 5350 - 5780 - 6210RPMS where you make your peak power.
Now back to the 4490 .3-.5 diff that is 300RPMS earlier than when you make your peak tourqe #s
@ around 4800 rpms boost begins to increase and you see a 1LB TQ difference 388 coated ebay - 387 uncoated works
@ around 5400 rpms bosst is over 1lb difference and we see a 4 hp difference
Why is your boost favoring your COATED ebay thhrough the whole range?
Originally Posted by badhabit90
/\ most people have suffered from severe boost spike installing the ebay O2 housings.
is this true with the Invidia and WORKS pieces?? no one has addressed this issue.
is this true with the Invidia and WORKS pieces?? no one has addressed this issue.
David,
Once again, it's awesome to see vendor take the time to do tests like these. Even though no one will ever be able to satisfy everyone's preferred test requirements...
From page 3, Superhatch, yes, I have logs from all the pulls. I used the AEM logger on the all pulls.
There was no change in AFR's and as you can see the boost pressures were all the same as shown on the graph. No knock count change either.
There was no change in AFR's and as you can see the boost pressures were all the same as shown on the graph. No knock count change either.
From page 5.
I have sold 75+ of the SS Ebay style 02 housings. I haven't seen one break yet. It is thin (which for me is good as it also makes it light) and I'd say there is a chance that over time it could fail. I have not personally seen one fail yet. The good thing about it is there isn't much if any weight hanging from it and the heat it sees isn't very severe so it may never fail. Your downpipe is all it holds up and in the case of our down pipe it only weighs in at 6 pounds and most of that weight is held up by the rear hanger. So there just isn't a lot of stress on the 02 housing, probably won't break.
razorlab,
What do you find so odd about the HP line on the dyno curve going flat? There is nothing odd about it, the car makes the same power from 5350 rpm to 7000 rpm. Some cars fall off, some climb, in this case it is just flat.
I have sold 75+ of the SS Ebay style 02 housings. I haven't seen one break yet. It is thin (which for me is good as it also makes it light) and I'd say there is a chance that over time it could fail. I have not personally seen one fail yet. The good thing about it is there isn't much if any weight hanging from it and the heat it sees isn't very severe so it may never fail. Your downpipe is all it holds up and in the case of our down pipe it only weighs in at 6 pounds and most of that weight is held up by the rear hanger. So there just isn't a lot of stress on the 02 housing, probably won't break.
razorlab,
What do you find so odd about the HP line on the dyno curve going flat? There is nothing odd about it, the car makes the same power from 5350 rpm to 7000 rpm. Some cars fall off, some climb, in this case it is just flat.
Page 6,
Markeddy,
I agree with you that buying some cheap crap part for a $30,000 car is on the silly side. You have to remember I got one of these Ebay housings completely doubting it and thinking it was a POS. When it showed up I was shocked at the quality. When I dyno'd it against our ported/ceramic stock housings I was even more shocked to see a 13+ whp gain. I was so shocked I had to reverse the testing to make sure of it. There is no fit/quality issues with it and the power is the best I have seen. Not using a cheap part in this case, is on the silly side.
The support bracket hasn't seemed to be an issue. We make 02 housings for the DSM's here in house. For 10+ years we haven't used a support bracket, I haven't had one break.
Markeddy,
I agree with you that buying some cheap crap part for a $30,000 car is on the silly side. You have to remember I got one of these Ebay housings completely doubting it and thinking it was a POS. When it showed up I was shocked at the quality. When I dyno'd it against our ported/ceramic stock housings I was even more shocked to see a 13+ whp gain. I was so shocked I had to reverse the testing to make sure of it. There is no fit/quality issues with it and the power is the best I have seen. Not using a cheap part in this case, is on the silly side.
The support bracket hasn't seemed to be an issue. We make 02 housings for the DSM's here in house. For 10+ years we haven't used a support bracket, I haven't had one break.
thats awesome. i orderd an ebay housing 2 days ago this couldn't have been better news...also sending it to you for the coating.
GREAT JOB!!!! although a lil disappointed about the .5 psi.......jk
GREAT JOB!!!! although a lil disappointed about the .5 psi.......jk
From page 7, BBYBruno, you say you couldn't be happier with the Invidia 02 housing and that's cool. One thing you need to remember though WE were the guys fighting the non-fitting piece of garbage trying to get it to go on your car. It is actually missing a bolt that can't even be installed. I think had you installed it yourself your opinion of it would be a lot worse. Also, as you have stated we put cams in your car, the 02 housing, a few other things and did a custom tune on it. The power you felt when you got the car back from us had very little to do with the actual 02 housing.
From page 8, Markeddy asks:
1. How much of a WHP gain over the stock o2 housing is the ported/coated o2 housing you offer?
**You would have to look way back to find the testing I did of the ported/coated 02 housing against the stock one. I believe I did the manifold, turbine housing and 02 housing all at the same time when it did the test. Not sure I ever tested the 02 housing porting alone.
2. I don't understand one of your comments above. You say the SS Ebay is worth 13-15whp over the Buchur stock ported/coated o2 housing and then go on to say that the others are only 9-11whp over a plain jane stock o2 housing when all the testing was against your ported/coated stock o2 housing to begin with.
**I typed too fast I guess. The SS Ebay is worth 13-15 whp OVER the stock PORTED/COATED housing. I didn't remember, or never tested, the ported housing back to back with just the stock one. The numbers for 9-11 whp for the Works/Invidia would actually be over an already PORTED/COATED housing. Sorry for that confusion.
1. How much of a WHP gain over the stock o2 housing is the ported/coated o2 housing you offer?
**You would have to look way back to find the testing I did of the ported/coated 02 housing against the stock one. I believe I did the manifold, turbine housing and 02 housing all at the same time when it did the test. Not sure I ever tested the 02 housing porting alone.
2. I don't understand one of your comments above. You say the SS Ebay is worth 13-15whp over the Buchur stock ported/coated o2 housing and then go on to say that the others are only 9-11whp over a plain jane stock o2 housing when all the testing was against your ported/coated stock o2 housing to begin with.
**I typed too fast I guess. The SS Ebay is worth 13-15 whp OVER the stock PORTED/COATED housing. I didn't remember, or never tested, the ported housing back to back with just the stock one. The numbers for 9-11 whp for the Works/Invidia would actually be over an already PORTED/COATED housing. Sorry for that confusion.