my engine blew....any thoughts and help?
If someone plans on running 26psi. Please don't waste your money on meth injection. Spike your tank with a gal or two of 110 and have the same results without the risk.
I am curious if Al could tell me what the efficiency of the stock turbo and AIT temps are at 34psi on a 1000cc injector spraying 100% VP M3 methanol at 150psi?
If not, please move on to a subject you are well versed in.
I am curious if Al could tell me what the efficiency of the stock turbo and AIT temps are at 34psi on a 1000cc injector spraying 100% VP M3 methanol at 150psi?
If not, please move on to a subject you are well versed in.
I recomend that customers on staight pump gas run a maximum of 22 psi spike tapering down
I recomend that customers that are on alchy and pump gas (particularly Cali and HI fuel) run a max of 26 psi of boost on the road peak
Customers with 100% race gas and or race gas and meth are recomended to run 30 psi or what ever thier injectors can supply
These are my recomendations and I feel that following them will greatly reduce or avoid problems like the one in this thread. Pump gas has varying volitility and varying octane levels and as a consumer we have no way to know the quality of each tankful we pick up. Unless you are constantly monitiroing knock and a/f egt etc with every tank - IMHO - you have no business running the car on the ragged edge. IMHO 30 psi of boost on pump gas with a small squirt of alchy is overly agressive. I know from experience that the amount of alcohol the SMC kit supplies is not enough to totally supress any and all knock under all conditions at extreme bost levels on pump gas. The pump gas used plays a huge part in how hard you can push the tune. Remember alcohol injection is a tuning aide. You are not running the car 100% on alchy.
These are my recomendations - and customers are free to accept or reject them - end of story.
There is no black and white clear answers on these subjects, its a lot of shades of gray.
My recomendations are made with maximum engine reliability and long term reliability in mind.
Al
Last edited by DynoFlash; Aug 20, 2007 at 09:02 AM.
I posted up my research on another topic but im sure the tune by AMS was fine, Im sure nothing wrong with the kit either. the reason why this happens is because methanol exhibits hydrophobic properties in that oxygen will bond with the water/fuel but the other parts of the meth will not. So he sent extemely lean from having all this oxygen and not fuel from the hydorphobic problem of the meth.
were you using a fresh tank of meth, no more than 1 day old. or were you using the same tank that was used at AMS?
were you using a fresh tank of meth, no more than 1 day old. or were you using the same tank that was used at AMS?
Your theory has no basis and is way off, but being sold as "the reason" for failure -which it is not.
We have used meth injection for three years now on the shopcar MR. In excess now of 36psi+ on Evogreen. We have even used a 6 month old vented tankful of meth with no ill effects. Moisture in the tank is not the cause of failure.
Actually, many people get the wrong idea from the hype and trash talk of tuners and other motorheads (many of the later don't even own cars 
) The level of tolerance for disaster varies greatly and if for some reason a person cannot tolerate down time, IMHO they should not screw around with their cars... I'm one of those people. I've learned my lesson and now I'm quite careful about what I modify in my car. Anyway, I'm happy now with 319 whp on a DD dyno at ZERO psi 
As for the gentleman's car that blew the engine, there is no way to tell what happened from the safe distance of our keyboards. All is basically speculation and idle chatter. When you tear the engine down, you might find out what happened and you might be able to get it all repaired satisfactorily. Perhaps you might also avoid future catastrophes as well.
Good luck
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From: Spec-Ops Motorsports, Fayetteville, NC
thats funny, thats not what you told me... your words to me were, crank your boost up, you should be good to run 23 or 24. All i had was a base map and no walboro. I guess it left me with no reason to wonder why when i had the ability to log my car why i was seeing a steady knock count. Then when i linked back up with you for a reflash after installing my intake, you took the money, sent the flash a week later, my SES light came on, i ATTEMPTED TO contact you, emailing, calling and even using your secretary warrtalon and i have yet to ever receive a response. Luckily for me, i found a guy to help me out with my tune and amazingly enough the SES was gone and my car felt 200 times better.
Last edited by bigric09; Aug 20, 2007 at 10:48 AM.
I do not agree with you except for the fact that methanol does absorb water. Methanol and water are mixed everyday in injection applications "on purpose". Absorbtion of water into methanol has little to no effect on the effects of methanol.
Your theory has no basis and is way off, but being sold as "the reason" for failure -which it is not.
We have used meth injection for three years now on the shopcar MR. In excess now of 36psi+ on Evogreen. We have even used a 6 month old vented tankful of meth with no ill effects. Moisture in the tank is not the cause of failure.
Your theory has no basis and is way off, but being sold as "the reason" for failure -which it is not.
We have used meth injection for three years now on the shopcar MR. In excess now of 36psi+ on Evogreen. We have even used a 6 month old vented tankful of meth with no ill effects. Moisture in the tank is not the cause of failure.
In the UK Aquamist recomends a mixture of water and alchy as the water can adsorb more heat and also provides a more stable (fire safe) micture - amung other reasons
The point being that having stale alcohol which has absorbed water will not casue any problems unless your tune is so lean that the missing alcohol results in an overly lean condition
Aquamist and others such as snow many times recommend 50/50 mixtures due to liability. The pumps they use state specifically NOT to use with flammable liquids. Using a mixture of 50/50 dilutes it enough to no longer be flammable.
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From: Spec-Ops Motorsports, Fayetteville, NC
thats funny, thats not what you told me... your words to me were, crank your boost up, you should be good to run 23 or 24. All i had was a base map and no walboro. I guess it left me with no reason to wonder why when i had the ability to log my car why i was seeing a steady knock count. Then when i linked back up with you for a reflash after installing my intake, you took the money, sent the flash a week later, my SES light came on, i ATTEMPTED TO contact you, emailing, calling and even using your secretary warrtalon and i have yet to ever receive a response. Luckily for me, i found a guy to help me out with my tune and amazingly enough the SES was gone and my car felt 200 times better.
this comment will be ignored
You are welcome to do a search on Evo M of all my thousands of posts on the subject and see what levels of boost I am suggesting
Unless a customer is telling me that they are mixing some race gas in with the pump gas I would not advise 24 psi of boost
In fact interestingly enough a returning customer this weekend wanted to get a pump gas tune at 25 psi and I talked with him at length on the subject and only after suggesting he run lower boost and also advising him of the risk level did I follow his request and tune the car at 25 psi. Although his car made a lot of power and was at the time knock free - it is not a practice I feel confortable.
If you have any unresolved customer service issues with my company you are suggested to PM me or call me directly to discuss and resolve them. I am curious to hear about your SEL light.
Al
Unless a customer is telling me that they are mixing some race gas in with the pump gas I would not advise 24 psi of boost
In fact interestingly enough a returning customer this weekend wanted to get a pump gas tune at 25 psi and I talked with him at length on the subject and only after suggesting he run lower boost and also advising him of the risk level did I follow his request and tune the car at 25 psi. Although his car made a lot of power and was at the time knock free - it is not a practice I feel confortable.
If you have any unresolved customer service issues with my company you are suggested to PM me or call me directly to discuss and resolve them. I am curious to hear about your SEL light.
Al
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From: wexford,pa
here ya go from the meth injection section in advance.
I also found PHd research work done. Its finding are;
Our calculations indicate that methanol adsorbs chemically by donating electron charge from the methanol oxygen to the surface aluminum. We find that the surface atomic structure changes upon adsorption, most notably the spacing between the outermost Al and O layers changes from 0.11 Angstrom to 0.33 Angstrom.
Water and oxygen in sufficient concentrations inhibited attack, probably by virtue of the protective aluminum oxide that is maintained in their presence.
Also from another research finding,
methanol exhibits both hydrophobic and hydrophilic character. It has an —OH radical which can bond readily with the surrounding water molecules. It also has a methyl radical which cannot bond and is hydrophobic. Both headgroups are sufficiently simple in structure to be interpretable in a diffraction experiment at the atomic level.
so the final conclusion is, Adding 100% methonal will cause corrosive problems on aluminum, Adding water offsets this corrosive problem. methonal is hyrophilic.
As long as you use fresh methonal/water mix every time you start the car, dont lean it out to much because of the extra Oxygen from hyrophilic nature of meth. And there is no left over methonal left inside the chamber by running the engine without using meth for awhile you will probably will not experience problems.
this I guess can get expensive having to toss away tons of unused methonal.
here are a few of the links
http://www.isis.rl.ac.uk/isis2001/hi...ydrophobic.htm
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract...ef950164e.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol
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I also found PHd research work done. Its finding are;
Our calculations indicate that methanol adsorbs chemically by donating electron charge from the methanol oxygen to the surface aluminum. We find that the surface atomic structure changes upon adsorption, most notably the spacing between the outermost Al and O layers changes from 0.11 Angstrom to 0.33 Angstrom.
Water and oxygen in sufficient concentrations inhibited attack, probably by virtue of the protective aluminum oxide that is maintained in their presence.
Also from another research finding,
methanol exhibits both hydrophobic and hydrophilic character. It has an —OH radical which can bond readily with the surrounding water molecules. It also has a methyl radical which cannot bond and is hydrophobic. Both headgroups are sufficiently simple in structure to be interpretable in a diffraction experiment at the atomic level.
so the final conclusion is, Adding 100% methonal will cause corrosive problems on aluminum, Adding water offsets this corrosive problem. methonal is hyrophilic.
As long as you use fresh methonal/water mix every time you start the car, dont lean it out to much because of the extra Oxygen from hyrophilic nature of meth. And there is no left over methonal left inside the chamber by running the engine without using meth for awhile you will probably will not experience problems.
this I guess can get expensive having to toss away tons of unused methonal.
here are a few of the links
http://www.isis.rl.ac.uk/isis2001/hi...ydrophobic.htm
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract...ef950164e.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol
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I would look at the tune, look at the FPR vacuum lines, then look at the meth injection system.
You CAN run 30-34psi on stock motor safely as many of my local cars do it. Difference is that my cars run the TTP-Engineering meth injection system complete with 1000cc injector, superior Shurflo pump, full safeguards with boost cut based on lean AFR and or high EGT.
Before someone rains in and states that we have 93oct in FL, I will say that we have tuned CA bound meth injected Evo's also by mixing 50% 87oct and 50% 93oct to achieve 90oct to tune for 91oct in CA. We tune those cars to 30psi as well.
I currently run over the max readout on my MAP sensor of 35.5psi+ with the Evogreen and my meth injection system. The only difference in my system is that I also use the MAFTPro piggyback fuel controller to switch maps to pump gas and drop boost to 20psi (pump gas map) if the programmed alarms are set off by the conditions in the engine.
You CAN run 30-34psi on stock motor safely as many of my local cars do it. Difference is that my cars run the TTP-Engineering meth injection system complete with 1000cc injector, superior Shurflo pump, full safeguards with boost cut based on lean AFR and or high EGT.
Before someone rains in and states that we have 93oct in FL, I will say that we have tuned CA bound meth injected Evo's also by mixing 50% 87oct and 50% 93oct to achieve 90oct to tune for 91oct in CA. We tune those cars to 30psi as well.
I currently run over the max readout on my MAP sensor of 35.5psi+ with the Evogreen and my meth injection system. The only difference in my system is that I also use the MAFTPro piggyback fuel controller to switch maps to pump gas and drop boost to 20psi (pump gas map) if the programmed alarms are set off by the conditions in the engine.
Scott can you pumps handle 100% meth?
Also has YOUR car ever had to cut boost cause of a failure?
-Matt
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From: wexford,pa
dont know why that link did not work
http://www.isis.rl.ac.uk/isis2001/hi...ydrophobic.htm
http://www.isis.rl.ac.uk/isis2001/hi...ydrophobic.htm
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From: Spec-Ops Motorsports, Fayetteville, NC
You are welcome to do a search on Evo M of all my thousands of posts on the subject and see what levels of boost I am suggesting
Unless a customer is telling me that they are mixing some race gas in with the pump gas I would not advise 24 psi of boost
In fact interestingly enough a returning customer this weekend wanted to get a pump gas tune at 25 psi and I talked with him at length on the subject and only after suggesting he run lower boost and also advising him of the risk level did I follow his request and tune the car at 25 psi. Although his car made a lot of power and was at the time knock free - it is not a practice I feel confortable.
If you have any unresolved customer service issues with my company you are suggested to PM me or call me directly to discuss and resolve them. I am curious to hear about your SEL light.
Al
Unless a customer is telling me that they are mixing some race gas in with the pump gas I would not advise 24 psi of boost
In fact interestingly enough a returning customer this weekend wanted to get a pump gas tune at 25 psi and I talked with him at length on the subject and only after suggesting he run lower boost and also advising him of the risk level did I follow his request and tune the car at 25 psi. Although his car made a lot of power and was at the time knock free - it is not a practice I feel confortable.
If you have any unresolved customer service issues with my company you are suggested to PM me or call me directly to discuss and resolve them. I am curious to hear about your SEL light.
Al
Apparently im lying and you never told me that running 23 or 24 lbs is alright, i dont know what i was thinking. I guess that is why we pulled over on the side of 95 and i got out to turn my boost up to 24 with you in the car never happened. That also means you almost killing my car getting off on the next exit ramp never happened either.
as far as contacting you about the cel, i tried that, i called at least 4 or 5 times in a single week. I sent at least 3 PM's to you, sent a few to warrtalon also. The only reply i received was from Clay saying, Al is busy, if you are having issues talk to me about them and i will try and contact him. I'm done with trying to explain it to you. You had that chance a year ago. In a nutshell, i had no CEL... installed the intake, ran it for several weeks, no CEL, got my eflash from you, flashed it, CEL within an hour. Cleared it, P0301. Changed plugs, no fix, changed wires no fix. changed flash, its amazing, no cel.
Very impressive research 
. However, I don't understand what this "methonal" ingredient is. I've never heard of it before. I've read about methanol and alcohol (meth and alky to motorheads) as fuel additives. Is this something new?
. However, I don't understand what this "methonal" ingredient is. I've never heard of it before. I've read about methanol and alcohol (meth and alky to motorheads) as fuel additives. Is this something new?here ya go from the meth injection section in advance.
I also found PHd research work done. Its finding are;
Our calculations indicate that methanol adsorbs chemically by donating electron charge from the methanol oxygen to the surface aluminum. We find that the surface atomic structure changes upon adsorption, most notably the spacing between the outermost Al and O layers changes from 0.11 Angstrom to 0.33 Angstrom.
Water and oxygen in sufficient concentrations inhibited attack, probably by virtue of the protective aluminum oxide that is maintained in their presence.
Also from another research finding,
methanol exhibits both hydrophobic and hydrophilic character. It has an —OH radical which can bond readily with the surrounding water molecules. It also has a methyl radical which cannot bond and is hydrophobic. Both headgroups are sufficiently simple in structure to be interpretable in a diffraction experiment at the atomic level.
so the final conclusion is, Adding 100% methonal will cause corrosive problems on aluminum, Adding water offsets this corrosive problem. methonal is hyrophilic.
As long as you use fresh methonal/water mix every time you start the car, dont lean it out to much because of the extra Oxygen from hyrophilic nature of meth. And there is no left over methonal left inside the chamber by running the engine without using meth for awhile you will probably will not experience problems.
this I guess can get expensive having to toss away tons of unused methonal.
here are a few of the links
http://www.isis.rl.ac.uk/isis2001/hi...ydrophobic.htm
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract...ef950164e.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol
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I also found PHd research work done. Its finding are;
Our calculations indicate that methanol adsorbs chemically by donating electron charge from the methanol oxygen to the surface aluminum. We find that the surface atomic structure changes upon adsorption, most notably the spacing between the outermost Al and O layers changes from 0.11 Angstrom to 0.33 Angstrom.
Water and oxygen in sufficient concentrations inhibited attack, probably by virtue of the protective aluminum oxide that is maintained in their presence.
Also from another research finding,
methanol exhibits both hydrophobic and hydrophilic character. It has an —OH radical which can bond readily with the surrounding water molecules. It also has a methyl radical which cannot bond and is hydrophobic. Both headgroups are sufficiently simple in structure to be interpretable in a diffraction experiment at the atomic level.
so the final conclusion is, Adding 100% methonal will cause corrosive problems on aluminum, Adding water offsets this corrosive problem. methonal is hyrophilic.
As long as you use fresh methonal/water mix every time you start the car, dont lean it out to much because of the extra Oxygen from hyrophilic nature of meth. And there is no left over methonal left inside the chamber by running the engine without using meth for awhile you will probably will not experience problems.
this I guess can get expensive having to toss away tons of unused methonal.
here are a few of the links
http://www.isis.rl.ac.uk/isis2001/hi...ydrophobic.htm
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract...ef950164e.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol
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^ some tuners add too much timing at idle to get the car to idle smooth. Too much timing at idle can sometimes throw a random misfire code. As long as it only throws this code at idle the car is fine. Now if you are accelerating and the car actually misfires and the code pops up, something is wrong.