The Perfect / Ideal WHP Number for Road Track Racing
Jan 4, 2008, 09:56 AM
#16
A better question would be, "Given the EVO IX's gearing, which turbo setup will likely give the best average power through the usable rpm range, and represent perhaps the most suitable compromise for longer and shorter road courses?"
For starters, there is a great deal of 'power' to be had from a tweaked suspension and strong braking ability. To illustrate, there is a video floating around of two characters on a road course in a Lotus Elise, passing much higher powered cars at will, simply because they can easily outbrake and outhandle them in the turns. The more turns, the greater the advantage. Plan on investing lots time and money in this area.
While I don't have time to go into great detail regarding power theory, the best strategy is to get as broad a power curve as possible between 3000-7500rpm. Given a balance between spool characterstics and a reasonable torque curve, I'd say a car with an FP Green and attention to headflow, cams, and tuning is going to do well on both long and short tracks, especially with the advantage of MIVEC with a IX. A broader power curve means less shifting, and shifting takes time. A GT3076R with twin scroll T3 (.78 A/R) would be great and would give a bit more peak power, but not everyone can afford that.
This should orient you in the right direction.
Jan 4, 2008, 11:01 AM
#17
There is no definite answer to that question, simply because there is little correlation between an arbitrary peak power figure and success on various road courses.
A better question would be, "Given the EVO IX's gearing, which turbo setup will likely give the best average power through the usable rpm range, and represent perhaps the most suitable compromise for longer and shorter road courses?"
For starters, there is a great deal of 'power' to be had from a tweaked suspension and strong braking ability. To illustrate, there is a video floating around of two characters on a road course in a Lotus Elise, passing much higher powered cars at will, simply because they can easily outbrake and outhandle them in the turns. The more turns, the greater the advantage. Plan on investing lots time and money in this area.
While I don't have time to go into great detail regarding power theory, the best strategy is to get as broad a power curve as possible between 3000-7500rpm. Given a balance between spool characterstics and a reasonable torque curve, I'd say a car with an FP Green and attention to headflow, cams, and tuning is going to do well on both long and short tracks, especially with the advantage of MIVEC with a IX. A broader power curve means less shifting, and shifting takes time. A GT3076R with twin scroll T3 (.78 A/R) would be great and would give a bit more peak power, but not everyone can afford that.
This should orient you in the right direction.
A better question would be, "Given the EVO IX's gearing, which turbo setup will likely give the best average power through the usable rpm range, and represent perhaps the most suitable compromise for longer and shorter road courses?"
For starters, there is a great deal of 'power' to be had from a tweaked suspension and strong braking ability. To illustrate, there is a video floating around of two characters on a road course in a Lotus Elise, passing much higher powered cars at will, simply because they can easily outbrake and outhandle them in the turns. The more turns, the greater the advantage. Plan on investing lots time and money in this area.
While I don't have time to go into great detail regarding power theory, the best strategy is to get as broad a power curve as possible between 3000-7500rpm. Given a balance between spool characterstics and a reasonable torque curve, I'd say a car with an FP Green and attention to headflow, cams, and tuning is going to do well on both long and short tracks, especially with the advantage of MIVEC with a IX. A broader power curve means less shifting, and shifting takes time. A GT3076R with twin scroll T3 (.78 A/R) would be great and would give a bit more peak power, but not everyone can afford that.
This should orient you in the right direction.
Jan 4, 2008, 11:01 AM
#18
Whatever your chassis, suspension, and tires can control.
Not infinity but a ton if you have a stitch welded chassis, cage, slicks, $25K suspension, blah, blah.
For road racing as a posed to drag racing, you do everything else first then and only then do you do power mods.
Not infinity but a ton if you have a stitch welded chassis, cage, slicks, $25K suspension, blah, blah.
For road racing as a posed to drag racing, you do everything else first then and only then do you do power mods.
Jan 4, 2008, 11:02 AM
#19
I did not bash. I just know you and know that this is not up your alley. Making a new Evo into a track car is one thing. Doing a few mods to make it better on track is quite another. I do not think it's in your best interests to build a "road race project car," but there's nothing wrong with getting on track. I would highly suggest getting lots of experience on track with the car in 100% stock form other than minor brake component upgrades (pads, fluid, SS lines). Then, after you've moved up the ranks, gained experience, gained confidence, learned how to actually drive (we all go through this), then you can decide exactly how you want to "build" your car. $10k triple adjustable Penskes with a widebody kit and 315-width slicks or $800 Megans with 140-rated street tires? There's no way you can answer that right now.
As for having been doing homework, your initial comments lead me to believe otherwise. That whole line about "more difficult to accelerate through the apexes at WOT properly and as quickly as possible"...eh, sounds like regurgitation from someone who doesn't really know much as opposed to true understanding of the sport, because it didn't make sense.
Lastly, this is not the Motorsports forum - that's down below and is where you want to be.
As for having been doing homework, your initial comments lead me to believe otherwise. That whole line about "more difficult to accelerate through the apexes at WOT properly and as quickly as possible"...eh, sounds like regurgitation from someone who doesn't really know much as opposed to true understanding of the sport, because it didn't make sense.
Lastly, this is not the Motorsports forum - that's down below and is where you want to be.
I know learning how to drive the car perfectly should be number one. I agree with you 100%
Jan 4, 2008, 11:09 AM
#20
And FWIW, my car is basically build according to how Ted B suggested. I currently have a stock IX turbo, but the plan this year is to go with the FP Green, and that will be al I plan to do in terms of power, because I think it's a great compromise of peak power output, spool, response, and broad powerband. My suspension, brakes, and tires are already to a development point that can handle anything a 20G can give...
Jan 4, 2008, 02:49 PM
#22
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Since you're just starting out, here's my $.02:
1. Keep the power stock ... for now
2. Do these things first:
--- SS brake lines
--- Flush your brake fluid and replace with Motul RBF600 or Castrol SRF
--- Get better brake pads ... something matched up to the stock tires
--- Get an alignment
--- Keep your stock rims and tires (you can get good condition stock Advans relatively cheap when you wear out the first set)
3. Go and learn your car in this state (plan on this taking at least 5-6 HPDE events)
4. Now sit down and think about how you want to improve your car.
You'll probably find that after you learn to push the car in its stock state, that you will want to address the stock handling and grip level first, meaning an improved suspension and better tires. After you're comfortable with a grippier, better turning Evo, you'll want to add some power into the mix (basic bolt-ons for maybe 300-350 whp on an IX).
Adding a ton of power without knowing how to control the car is not the wisest way to go. My first track day I purposely drove on my winter tires ... was a great learning experience. I would also highly recommend doing a track day in the rain. It will teach you a lot about car control and driving habits (or the lack thereof).
l8r)
1. Keep the power stock ... for now
2. Do these things first:
--- SS brake lines
--- Flush your brake fluid and replace with Motul RBF600 or Castrol SRF
--- Get better brake pads ... something matched up to the stock tires
--- Get an alignment
--- Keep your stock rims and tires (you can get good condition stock Advans relatively cheap when you wear out the first set)
3. Go and learn your car in this state (plan on this taking at least 5-6 HPDE events)
4. Now sit down and think about how you want to improve your car.
You'll probably find that after you learn to push the car in its stock state, that you will want to address the stock handling and grip level first, meaning an improved suspension and better tires. After you're comfortable with a grippier, better turning Evo, you'll want to add some power into the mix (basic bolt-ons for maybe 300-350 whp on an IX).
Adding a ton of power without knowing how to control the car is not the wisest way to go. My first track day I purposely drove on my winter tires ... was a great learning experience. I would also highly recommend doing a track day in the rain. It will teach you a lot about car control and driving habits (or the lack thereof).
l8r)
Jan 4, 2008, 02:57 PM
#23
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there is no ideal WHP for road racing.....i know guys who spend a ton of money on suspension stuff getting the car balanced perfectly....and i also have seen guys with 450-500whp road race cars....it all depends on you and what you want to do.
Jan 4, 2008, 05:09 PM
#24
And FWIW, my car is basically build according to how Ted B suggested. I currently have a stock IX turbo, but the plan this year is to go with the FP Green, and that will be al I plan to do in terms of power, because I think it's a great compromise of peak power output, spool, response, and broad powerband. My suspension, brakes, and tires are already to a development point that can handle anything a 20G can give...
Jan 4, 2008, 05:35 PM
#25
Since you're just starting out, here's my $.02:
1. Keep the power stock ... for now
2. Do these things first:
--- SS brake lines
--- Flush your brake fluid and replace with Motul RBF600 or Castrol SRF
--- Get better brake pads ... something matched up to the stock tires
--- Get an alignment
--- Keep your stock rims and tires (you can get good condition stock Advans relatively cheap when you wear out the first set)
3. Go and learn your car in this state (plan on this taking at least 5-6 HPDE events)
4. Now sit down and think about how you want to improve your car.
You'll probably find that after you learn to push the car in its stock state, that you will want to address the stock handling and grip level first, meaning an improved suspension and better tires. After you're comfortable with a grippier, better turning Evo, you'll want to add some power into the mix (basic bolt-ons for maybe 300-350 whp on an IX).
Adding a ton of power without knowing how to control the car is not the wisest way to go. My first track day I purposely drove on my winter tires ... was a great learning experience. I would also highly recommend doing a track day in the rain. It will teach you a lot about car control and driving habits (or the lack thereof).
l8r)
1. Keep the power stock ... for now
2. Do these things first:
--- SS brake lines
--- Flush your brake fluid and replace with Motul RBF600 or Castrol SRF
--- Get better brake pads ... something matched up to the stock tires
--- Get an alignment
--- Keep your stock rims and tires (you can get good condition stock Advans relatively cheap when you wear out the first set)
3. Go and learn your car in this state (plan on this taking at least 5-6 HPDE events)
4. Now sit down and think about how you want to improve your car.
You'll probably find that after you learn to push the car in its stock state, that you will want to address the stock handling and grip level first, meaning an improved suspension and better tires. After you're comfortable with a grippier, better turning Evo, you'll want to add some power into the mix (basic bolt-ons for maybe 300-350 whp on an IX).
Adding a ton of power without knowing how to control the car is not the wisest way to go. My first track day I purposely drove on my winter tires ... was a great learning experience. I would also highly recommend doing a track day in the rain. It will teach you a lot about car control and driving habits (or the lack thereof).
l8r)
Great advice
Jan 6, 2008, 11:50 PM
#27
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your times will be quicker the quicker you can slow down not speed up! 
also if you look at true race cars (ie GT racing) although they are limited, few break 450bhp. at this power level you dont need MAMOTH tires to put the power down.
also get the suspension sorted first! its good out the box but there is allways room for imporvemnt. if you are a couple of MPH quicker in the corners then you are going to be a a few more faster as you hit the straights!
so to sum up:
1st breaks!!!
2nd Handling inc. tires
3rd a litte more power
4th weight reduction/chassi mods
5th more power
6th areo
7th more power still
Chris.
also if you look at true race cars (ie GT racing) although they are limited, few break 450bhp. at this power level you dont need MAMOTH tires to put the power down.
also get the suspension sorted first! its good out the box but there is allways room for imporvemnt. if you are a couple of MPH quicker in the corners then you are going to be a a few more faster as you hit the straights!
so to sum up:
1st breaks!!!
2nd Handling inc. tires
3rd a litte more power
4th weight reduction/chassi mods
5th more power
6th areo
7th more power still
Chris.
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