How is it that so many products for sale in the Evo market undergo little or no testing? We as consumers should set a higher standard for the companies which compete in this space. If you are going to go through the trouble to design, build, and sell a part, how hard would it be to get some dyno time and do some testing? How is it you can be building and selling intercoolers, turbo kits, exhausts, intake manifolds, etc and not produce TONS of testing data on these parts?

It's ridiculous.

Let's say the average Evo enthusiast was in the market for an intercooler. Would he base that decision on how well the intercooler performed in terms of heat exchange and pressure drop? HAHAHA! No of course not.

 

It is just in the recent year or so we have had other companies introducing their parts into the Evo performance market. I remember back when I joined this forum in 06’ that the parts market on this board was dominated/monopolized by Buschur Racing and AMS Performance. It is now in competition with ETS, Peakboost, Full Race, etc.

Most of the companies that can offer good products with performance gains usually don’t have the funds to do much R&D. In a way the EVO customers serve as their R&D.

In my opinion: an intercooler is an intercooler as long as it has a reputable core (garret, etc). Differences in lower IC piping and upper IC piping designs are going to yield negligible performance gains. A tubular manifold is good as long as it fits the turbo near the block radiator perfectly, and has good welds/wont crack. Usually variances in design are like wearing different clothing just to show style and different looks between cars. To me when I am looking for gains I want something that will gain me a minimum of 30whp, rather than adding all these small parts that make a difference of +-5whp

Just my .02

 

setting a high standard is easy, dont buy it until they produce test results. dont buy just because lots of people say its good. dont buy because it just look like another known good one ect...

 

They do write reviews on there products and people also show many dyno or track numbers based on there new parts. The problem is your to lazy to SEARCH . Our home page SEARCH area works very well. And once again you start a pointless thread that will lead to nothing.

 

So following this line:

Has anyone seen any info on the Injen FMIC with the 3" inlets? Thats the new model but I havent seen any info on it. And I know a lot of vendors sell Injen here.

 

BTW we need to tell Buschur to make the Race FMIC to fit the stock route like intercooler piping.

 

It does. I have it. The only thing you would need to replace is the 45 degree couplers.

 

Ok jeez, let me search for intercooler testing... oh hmm, whats this thread here, an intercooler test from a 94AWDCoupe! Sweet that is just what I needed. Ok let me see here... uhhh... what the...

The above proves my point. And your personal attack directed at me proves you weren't raised well.

 

Have to agree. I am in the medical field, where basically you need to PROVE that a particular product is at least as good as an understood gold standard. Most of the info here is hard to compare, for example dyno graphs for various products with different levels of tune, different conditions, different blocks, different fuels. Becomes impossible to compare things.

Study design is the key - keep everything else constant and change only one item at a time. For example, equal build, turbo, etc. and only change out the cams for example. I think a recent "Turbo" article did something in this vein (or is it vane, or vain for you spelling freaks ).

I think that any vendor worth their salt does some/tons of R&D testing on these things. David Buschur says that he tests the competition's equipment against his own, . . . and I believe he does. I would if I were him and had "free" dyno time and some extra cash. Wouldn't you? Thing is, if he discovers a better product, it hurts his bottom line to let on to those out there. He is running a business after all. As well, there are dyno results which may or may not apply to actual real-world conditions. To the "big players" credit, look at the BR website and you will see the AMS VSR intake; On the AMS website, you will find the BR ignition set-up. Neither website, however, shows you the temp drop on their non-race IC cores at 85 F 35% relative humidity with 93 Pump gas on a stock turbo 20 psi showing pressure drop as well as rated cfm. You'll get a view, AT BEST, of a good looking graph that shows an extreme example of how their core performed better than stock. Sometimes it's listed on an otherwise stock set-up, sometimes a completely modified one that may not suit your personal set-up.

What are the dimensions of the stock intercooler? The weight? How is this product we are introducing different, better? PROVE IT! Show us on a stock set-up, a typical "modified stock" set-up with a 2.0 and a green, and also with an "even more modified" 35R w/ stroker and forged internals.

What is the weight of stock one piece front rotors? What is the weight of 2 piece WORKS rotors? Do the slots and cooling vanes really reduce temps? Let's try measuring brake temps and stopping distances for 20 stops from 100 mph to 0 with same pads, then with another combo. Et cetera, et cetera, etc.

Personally I would 100% agree with the main theme of this thread, that basically we have little to go by as far as independent unbiased testing. That concept might yield some interesting results. What we have boils down to (mostly) "my dad can beat up your dad" theoretical arguments with no proof.

I think some great "research" is being done by our OK friends (9se9) with his/their consistent pursuit of pushing each component and the testing of each piece after a change is made. Shows how each step can build on the next. If we only had the time and money to then show how each set of products from different companies either do or do not stand up to their claims. I think, actually, that Buschur racing and AMS have a lot of credibility for many of the products they sell - they are well recognized and if they put out some crap, well then the threads will light up. Little guys are not excluded from great designs, however, I would ask for proof. For example, does a Driven Innovations intake produce better torque and horsepower for the person with the coveted HTA35 and a stroker with "typical supporting mods" vs. the AMS? Why should I believe you? Why should I believe that a very nice looking light weight carbon fiber intake will actually make more horsepower for my given build? I'd be stupid for not asking for proof.

My feelings is that we should set up some sort of system to quantify the info we have already generated. Classes would be the most common/popular choices out there: stock, modified stock w/o turbo upgrade, modified stock with Green, forged build with bigger Garrett turbo, stroker with said bigger Garrett turbo. Equipment would then show that it matches or does not match the defined gold standard of choice (by committee decision as a starting point?).

Sorry for the run-ons and theory, just my frustration at not getting apples-to-apples comparisons on SOOOO MANY products that interest me.

 

one note though, you dont have to have the same set up, say for an intercooler, to prove it works better than stock. dont matter what turbo you have all you have to do is take the input/output temp, input/output pressure drop for same flow in lb/min and see which one performes better. But your point is well taken, you cant flow %30 more than a stock and get a crazy HP # and say this is the % increase in HP gain you will see cause that is not the truth. Truth is you might only see 3% increase.

 

Some companies like Buschur, AMS, etc. do plenty of research before releasing a product. I would only buy "complicated" items from them. Cams, FMIC, turbos...those are mods that you can't and shouldn't try to go cheap on. Things like a 3" exhaust are kind of idiot proof unless the maker can't weld. Sometimes the big brand names don't perform as well as the no-name stuff. My $0.02.

 

How the hell you expect a vendor of injen to give you a reason why they made the ic this way or why they made it that way. You take you lazy behind to there website. All vendors will do is copy and paste what it states on there site.

 

If i recall 94awdcoupe is TTP Engineering that was his name before i beleave. All you have to do is go to a vendors website and they will give you all the info you need. Stop being lazy.

 

Not just inter cooler testing.

 

Welcome to my world this is very common and its something you get fed up with, There are more than a few that products out there that have realy had no testing and dont work/fit correctly ,
But then there are a few good companies that stuff works realy well and most are at the top of there game .

Mark