Mustang Dyno comparison.
I'll say this and then this topic is done. Be very careful what you bring here in your "box". I don't care how big the audience is.
As for the handshake that I accepted in the past. That won't happen again, I can assure you of that. You are welcome to come here but knowing you better as time passes, I'd never shake your hand again.
We have done our dyno comparison. We have shown the ET's/MPH it takes to back up whp numbers from a Mustang Dyno. We have proven ourselves.
It is now everyone else's turn.
Some of you, have a great day. The others..................
As for the handshake that I accepted in the past. That won't happen again, I can assure you of that. You are welcome to come here but knowing you better as time passes, I'd never shake your hand again.
We have done our dyno comparison. We have shown the ET's/MPH it takes to back up whp numbers from a Mustang Dyno. We have proven ourselves.
It is now everyone else's turn.
Some of you, have a great day. The others..................
We are used to being the under dog. They said we couldn't win at Mid Ohio last year but we did anyways with dramatic flair. Not that he needs it, but a good cadre of people have Nick's back, including me. I think we'll be just fine, we usually are.
Because you shouldn't be rude and hang the phone up on people when you are the one having someone else call me so you can ask me a question that anyone who has assembled a 4G63 should know. You are the expert mechanic right?
We are used to being the under dog. They said we couldn't win at Mid Ohio last year but we did anyways with dramatic flair. Not that he needs it, but a good cadre of people have Nick's back, including me. I think we'll be just fine, we usually are.
We are used to being the under dog. They said we couldn't win at Mid Ohio last year but we did anyways with dramatic flair. Not that he needs it, but a good cadre of people have Nick's back, including me. I think we'll be just fine, we usually are.
B) If anyone who had assembled a 4g should know it, why couldn't you answer the question I was asking? You are the expert right?
C) I didn't hang up.
D) This wasn't what I was even talking about.
Speaking purely from an Evo enthusiast/consumer point of view. Dynoing 550-570whp on Buschurs MD is what it takes to trap in the 135-140mph range running 10's in a full weight, street driven Evolution. With all the dyno graphs, build information, VIDEOS provided by Buschur racing and their customers these numbers aren't hypothetical anymore...but a FACT. AS a consumer I appreciate that type of proof and information, because now rather than aiming for xxx amount of whp on Snuffy Racings Dynojet/pack/dynamics/etc, etc..and not having an idea of what times to expect, I know the exact range of whp my full interior evo has to be in to achieve my trap speed, e.t. goals. With that said and all the info provided...I can't wait to make the trip up to the Buschur camp this August
I love how all the arguments are usually between the Big Boys and the little guys! You never see the big boys argueing, thats because they help each other and respect each other! Look at the fastest 2 Evo 8s there are: Buschur and AMS! You dont see them on here fighting and bickering with each other, they help each other! They both sell each others products and THEY KNOW WHAT IT TAKES TO GET IT DONE! They both do great things for the evo community with all their tests and research they do! Dave spends countless hours testing Intake manifolds, cams, turbos, and intercoolers. Martin @ AMS has a huge thread about Cam testing.
That is why they are such great shops. They dont bash each other, they help! These other shops are going to be behind because all they do is bash the guys who have proven themselves!
The way I look at it is: You can talk **** when you can back it up! Buschur and AMS can talk ****! They both hold the records that really count! No one else has really proven themselves.
That is why they are such great shops. They dont bash each other, they help! These other shops are going to be behind because all they do is bash the guys who have proven themselves!
The way I look at it is: You can talk **** when you can back it up! Buschur and AMS can talk ****! They both hold the records that really count! No one else has really proven themselves.
I love how all the arguments are usually between the Big Boys and the little guys! You never see the big boys argueing, thats because they help each other and respect each other! Look at the fastest 2 Evo 8s there are: Buschur and AMS! You dont see them on here fighting and bickering with each other, they help each other! They both sell each others products and THEY KNOW WHAT IT TAKES TO GET IT DONE! They both do great things for the evo community with all their tests and research they do! Dave spends countless hours testing Intake manifolds, cams, turbos, and intercoolers. Martin @ AMS has a huge thread about Cam testing.
That is why they are such great shops. They dont bash each other, they help! These other shops are going to be behind because all they do is bash the guys who have proven themselves!
The way I look at it is: You can talk **** when you can back it up! Buschur and AMS can talk ****! They both hold the records that really count! No one else has really proven themselves.
That is why they are such great shops. They dont bash each other, they help! These other shops are going to be behind because all they do is bash the guys who have proven themselves!
The way I look at it is: You can talk **** when you can back it up! Buschur and AMS can talk ****! They both hold the records that really count! No one else has really proven themselves.
There is much more behind the scenes that goes on than you realize. It comes down to a narrowing market and tight economy. At least thats what ive gathered
To me it seems like the more well known vendors are out to help each other and have good builds and help the market!
Shops like Buschur, AMS, ETS, Vivid, CBRD, shops that test their products in real world conditions and then post the results.
Im not a fan of shops that say "This works" or things like that with no proof. All the top shops I have listed all do lots of testing and then post their results for the good of the community. Not just to boost their sales.
My greatest respect is for a shop that will tell you what you truly need, not just lots of parts inorder to make more money. And everytime Ive dealt with Buschur and AMS, they are willing to cross parts off that they feel you dont need. Many shops would just add it on inorder to make more money.
Shops like Buschur, AMS, ETS, Vivid, CBRD, shops that test their products in real world conditions and then post the results.
Im not a fan of shops that say "This works" or things like that with no proof. All the top shops I have listed all do lots of testing and then post their results for the good of the community. Not just to boost their sales.
My greatest respect is for a shop that will tell you what you truly need, not just lots of parts inorder to make more money. And everytime Ive dealt with Buschur and AMS, they are willing to cross parts off that they feel you dont need. Many shops would just add it on inorder to make more money.
Ok, First off I am sorry that it has taken me this long to get to this post. I am in Lexington at Mid Ohio for a 2 day PCA event.
First off. I am not super happy to see this thread. I understand why David posted it and feel the subject matter is valid and worthy of discussion but I also do not really care to be smack dab in the middle of the debate.
I think there are multiple things that I should address but as I need to get off to the track and do a little work on the car I have limited time and will try to make some points in a focused manner.
I could NOT be happier with the services I got from Nick and DTM. I first talked to Nick back when he started talking about big twin scroll kits. I thought the technology was interesting and sought to pick his brain and see what he was up to with his development. We had a great talk and I found him to be bright, interesting and engaging.
Next, my car is built almost entirely with Buschur parts. I bought a low mile car that had made use of Davids parts and continued to use his parts and services to slowly build the car to a fun and versatile driver that is used to barn storm back roads and hit 10-12 track days a year with. I focus on Buschur parts for obvious reasons. They have shown to be of very high quality and make power. Period.
I will also say that I have had the pleasure of getting to know David and consider him a friend. He is a no nonsense, competitive and driven guy who takes what he does seriously. At times he gets all blustery and grumps around but hey... thank goodness I have never done the same. In short I consider both Nick and David to be friends.
Last year David and a friend came down from Wakeman to see me at a PCA track day at MidOhio. We talked about how the car was running and my problem that the car was very strong on the fast sections but was having trouble in the tight sections as the stock suspension with sticky tires was killing me with body roll and being suboptimal in general. We talked about things to do and pondered which way to go with the suspension. One thing I remember david talking about during this conversation was that he hated to do suspension work. He said something to the effect that the only car he did this to was his own and he hated even that. He went on to tell me that Robi came in from time to time and I should try and get with him to work out bugs. This was fine by me.
I looked into almost every possible suspension available that would suit my wants and needs. I tried to figure out limitations and drawbacks of each given system and supporting modifications. In the end I went with the new Zzyzx EM Sport system and am happy that I did. I also added camber plates, rear pillow ball mounts and Whiteline Roll center and bumpsteer kits.
Installing these parts was no big deal, not hard to work with hard parts but I was not interested in having the system just slapped on without proper set up, whats the point. Flash back to David telling me that he did not like to do suspension work, I figured that they are up to their a$$ in work and I did not care to bend Davids ear and beg for him to do something he told me he hated. Later after reviewing my trip to DTM David told me that he would have been happy to help me out and do the work. If I had known this I would most likely have never made the trip but I am far from sad that I did.
So, who was going to do my suspension. I do some digging and find that it seems like Nick and DTM have FAST times at every course on the east coast for Evos. I see all of these folks who track HARD who have had their suspensions and set ups done by Nick and DTM and they are making killer times. In short Nick and DTM put up results and thats my bottom line. I like David for the same reason that I went to DTM for my suspension work, they just do good work. Period.
Please note... this thread is not about my suspension. Its about the power and the dynos. Then again as the power was not why I was there in the first place I need to make this known.
Over the winter I picked up a few parts to add along with the suspension bits. I grabbed some ARP head studs and HKS 272 cams and needed to get those done. As I was going to be at DTM for a few days and I was having trouble getting time to do anything else I felt very comfortable letting Nick take care of it for me. I did know that I had an exhaust leak. I was not sure where it was but thought it was just something simple and after telling Nick about it, he did too. We did not focus on this as the priority was the suspension. Nick also had maybe 20 people drop by to talk in the time I was there and at least as many cars outside waiting to get work done. In short grass was not growing under the shops feet.
On the last say I was there later in the afternoon we went to clear up this little leak prior to putting the car on the dyno and doing a conservative tune to keep the car safe with the new parts. Nick dug into it and after about 2min started swearing in Greek. Turns out the O2 housing was not able to be lined up properly and when it was installed it had at least one bolt left out. It was fine for a long while but at some point it had worked loose and broken the thin metal gasket causing the leak.
As it was late and I had to leave soon we really had NO options to fix this on the spot. I would have liked to but I had a 6-7 hour drive home and had to work the next night. As such we tightened the O2 housing as best possible and put the car on the dyno.
For the past weeks both David and Nick were hoping that I could get up to Wakeman to dyno as both guys wanted to know how close the numbers were. In the LONG lay over between the two runs I did not touch ANYTHING on the car. I DID add bigger wheels and tires which turn out to be about 4lbs heavier a corner. This would make for a small change. The car DID have the check engine light on when it went on the dyno. This turned out to be a "lean" code which was secondary to the leak at the O2 housing right next to the sensor. Otherwise the car was untouched.
I would also note that after we did the first two pulls David felt I may have a problem with my plug wires. He pulled off the cover and said "Yup. Look, it's arching." Then put on a new set for me.
In short I DO NOT feel that this is definitive. I think there is a significant gap but given the multiple obvious problems and issues I think that there are far too many variables to say this is a slam dunk.
I would also point out that I talked to Nick yesterday while at the track. I told him that the car did feel a little weaker than it had. He advised that I turn the boost back up a bit to where he tuned it and disconnect the battery and let the computer reset. On the next session the car was NOTICEABLY stronger. Pulled MUCH harder on the long sections and gave back what I remembered to be the feel of the car when I left DTM. I had given thought to going back to DTM to get the leak fixed and re-dynoed prior to going to see Dave and I wish I would have.
So does this make up the whole difference? I have no idea. As this stands I just don't think we have enough info to know for sure!
I do know that I like, respect and call both David and Nick friends and do not care for the tone of some of the posts in this thread. Both guys are alike in that they are passionate about what they do and may at times get a little worked up. In short I think they have more in common than not.
So much or the quick reply. I need to get checked out of here and get back out to the track and do some brake work. I will read more of this and post more later but I hope this thread dies soon.
First off. I am not super happy to see this thread. I understand why David posted it and feel the subject matter is valid and worthy of discussion but I also do not really care to be smack dab in the middle of the debate.
I think there are multiple things that I should address but as I need to get off to the track and do a little work on the car I have limited time and will try to make some points in a focused manner.
I could NOT be happier with the services I got from Nick and DTM. I first talked to Nick back when he started talking about big twin scroll kits. I thought the technology was interesting and sought to pick his brain and see what he was up to with his development. We had a great talk and I found him to be bright, interesting and engaging.
Next, my car is built almost entirely with Buschur parts. I bought a low mile car that had made use of Davids parts and continued to use his parts and services to slowly build the car to a fun and versatile driver that is used to barn storm back roads and hit 10-12 track days a year with. I focus on Buschur parts for obvious reasons. They have shown to be of very high quality and make power. Period.
I will also say that I have had the pleasure of getting to know David and consider him a friend. He is a no nonsense, competitive and driven guy who takes what he does seriously. At times he gets all blustery and grumps around but hey... thank goodness I have never done the same. In short I consider both Nick and David to be friends.
Last year David and a friend came down from Wakeman to see me at a PCA track day at MidOhio. We talked about how the car was running and my problem that the car was very strong on the fast sections but was having trouble in the tight sections as the stock suspension with sticky tires was killing me with body roll and being suboptimal in general. We talked about things to do and pondered which way to go with the suspension. One thing I remember david talking about during this conversation was that he hated to do suspension work. He said something to the effect that the only car he did this to was his own and he hated even that. He went on to tell me that Robi came in from time to time and I should try and get with him to work out bugs. This was fine by me.
I looked into almost every possible suspension available that would suit my wants and needs. I tried to figure out limitations and drawbacks of each given system and supporting modifications. In the end I went with the new Zzyzx EM Sport system and am happy that I did. I also added camber plates, rear pillow ball mounts and Whiteline Roll center and bumpsteer kits.
Installing these parts was no big deal, not hard to work with hard parts but I was not interested in having the system just slapped on without proper set up, whats the point. Flash back to David telling me that he did not like to do suspension work, I figured that they are up to their a$$ in work and I did not care to bend Davids ear and beg for him to do something he told me he hated. Later after reviewing my trip to DTM David told me that he would have been happy to help me out and do the work. If I had known this I would most likely have never made the trip but I am far from sad that I did.
So, who was going to do my suspension. I do some digging and find that it seems like Nick and DTM have FAST times at every course on the east coast for Evos. I see all of these folks who track HARD who have had their suspensions and set ups done by Nick and DTM and they are making killer times. In short Nick and DTM put up results and thats my bottom line. I like David for the same reason that I went to DTM for my suspension work, they just do good work. Period.
Please note... this thread is not about my suspension. Its about the power and the dynos. Then again as the power was not why I was there in the first place I need to make this known.
Over the winter I picked up a few parts to add along with the suspension bits. I grabbed some ARP head studs and HKS 272 cams and needed to get those done. As I was going to be at DTM for a few days and I was having trouble getting time to do anything else I felt very comfortable letting Nick take care of it for me. I did know that I had an exhaust leak. I was not sure where it was but thought it was just something simple and after telling Nick about it, he did too. We did not focus on this as the priority was the suspension. Nick also had maybe 20 people drop by to talk in the time I was there and at least as many cars outside waiting to get work done. In short grass was not growing under the shops feet.
On the last say I was there later in the afternoon we went to clear up this little leak prior to putting the car on the dyno and doing a conservative tune to keep the car safe with the new parts. Nick dug into it and after about 2min started swearing in Greek. Turns out the O2 housing was not able to be lined up properly and when it was installed it had at least one bolt left out. It was fine for a long while but at some point it had worked loose and broken the thin metal gasket causing the leak.
As it was late and I had to leave soon we really had NO options to fix this on the spot. I would have liked to but I had a 6-7 hour drive home and had to work the next night. As such we tightened the O2 housing as best possible and put the car on the dyno.
For the past weeks both David and Nick were hoping that I could get up to Wakeman to dyno as both guys wanted to know how close the numbers were. In the LONG lay over between the two runs I did not touch ANYTHING on the car. I DID add bigger wheels and tires which turn out to be about 4lbs heavier a corner. This would make for a small change. The car DID have the check engine light on when it went on the dyno. This turned out to be a "lean" code which was secondary to the leak at the O2 housing right next to the sensor. Otherwise the car was untouched.
I would also note that after we did the first two pulls David felt I may have a problem with my plug wires. He pulled off the cover and said "Yup. Look, it's arching." Then put on a new set for me.
In short I DO NOT feel that this is definitive. I think there is a significant gap but given the multiple obvious problems and issues I think that there are far too many variables to say this is a slam dunk.
I would also point out that I talked to Nick yesterday while at the track. I told him that the car did feel a little weaker than it had. He advised that I turn the boost back up a bit to where he tuned it and disconnect the battery and let the computer reset. On the next session the car was NOTICEABLY stronger. Pulled MUCH harder on the long sections and gave back what I remembered to be the feel of the car when I left DTM. I had given thought to going back to DTM to get the leak fixed and re-dynoed prior to going to see Dave and I wish I would have.
So does this make up the whole difference? I have no idea. As this stands I just don't think we have enough info to know for sure!
I do know that I like, respect and call both David and Nick friends and do not care for the tone of some of the posts in this thread. Both guys are alike in that they are passionate about what they do and may at times get a little worked up. In short I think they have more in common than not.
So much or the quick reply. I need to get checked out of here and get back out to the track and do some brake work. I will read more of this and post more later but I hope this thread dies soon.