Hydrogen powered Evo???, MitsuBeastly
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2
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From: Greenville, SC
You can try my device or build your own. I'm not here to sell anything to you guys or pitch any products. There are plans and info all over the net. I just wanted to offer some real life experience for those who are curious.
This is old technology and those who are skeptics simply haven't tried it.
The hydrogen cell went in my 240sx today and as I get a chance to post basic results I will. As soon as the hydrogen started making it's way into the intake you could hear the engine change and get quieter. It happens in every engine I supplement with a hydrogen generator. you can hear the engine begin running more efficiently... old or new.
My sr20det has about 50k miles so it is already silky smooth... yet it smoothed out even more and got a lot quieter mechanically.
Preliminary test drive showed increase in power and acceleration. Will do some dyno tests this year to satisfy my own questions about verifiable power gains on and off hydrogen. It certainly seemed as if my little stock turbo was spooling faster on hard acceleration.
After I clean my dirty engine bay I will post some videos and such. lol
My installed cell uses fairly low amps and doesn't waste a lot of energy in the form of heat. While I will be doing some performance testing... The main goal in my research is mileage and getting more of it out of less fossil fuel.
Even small amounts of this hydrogen/oxygen gas will give your pedal more pep. It doesn't cost much to try and see for yourself. Don't worry about hurting your engine... hydrogen is combustable and thats what the engine is designed for. A little hydrogen goes a long way to give that flame more punch.
No one is talking about perpetual motion...lol... I love the silly skeptics. Where did you get perpetual motion.. thats a stretch.
What I find funny is folks who have extensive knowledge in internal combustion engines who can't quite wrap their brains around the facts.
I know old school gear heads who swear by hydrogen supplementation in their daily drivers.
Independent studies on semis using hydrogen generators showed a 15% increase in the work load of those turbo diesel engines while using the hydrogen.
I am all for performance development of this simple technology. It should actually be easier to gain power from hydrogen than it is to gain max MPGs. A hydrogen generator by itself should be enough to increase power while still reducing emissions.
If any of you guys have regular dyno access then install a cell (mine or home made) and do some before and after tests. I would love to hear some results.
If you can use a few extra amps to make the fuel more combustable then why not? My stereo and video systems in my rides eat more amps than my hydrogen systems. lol
~Jason
HyrdroHybrids.Net
This is old technology and those who are skeptics simply haven't tried it.
The hydrogen cell went in my 240sx today and as I get a chance to post basic results I will. As soon as the hydrogen started making it's way into the intake you could hear the engine change and get quieter. It happens in every engine I supplement with a hydrogen generator. you can hear the engine begin running more efficiently... old or new.
My sr20det has about 50k miles so it is already silky smooth... yet it smoothed out even more and got a lot quieter mechanically.
Preliminary test drive showed increase in power and acceleration. Will do some dyno tests this year to satisfy my own questions about verifiable power gains on and off hydrogen. It certainly seemed as if my little stock turbo was spooling faster on hard acceleration.
After I clean my dirty engine bay I will post some videos and such. lol
My installed cell uses fairly low amps and doesn't waste a lot of energy in the form of heat. While I will be doing some performance testing... The main goal in my research is mileage and getting more of it out of less fossil fuel.
Even small amounts of this hydrogen/oxygen gas will give your pedal more pep. It doesn't cost much to try and see for yourself. Don't worry about hurting your engine... hydrogen is combustable and thats what the engine is designed for. A little hydrogen goes a long way to give that flame more punch.
No one is talking about perpetual motion...lol... I love the silly skeptics. Where did you get perpetual motion.. thats a stretch.
What I find funny is folks who have extensive knowledge in internal combustion engines who can't quite wrap their brains around the facts.
I know old school gear heads who swear by hydrogen supplementation in their daily drivers.
Independent studies on semis using hydrogen generators showed a 15% increase in the work load of those turbo diesel engines while using the hydrogen.
I am all for performance development of this simple technology. It should actually be easier to gain power from hydrogen than it is to gain max MPGs. A hydrogen generator by itself should be enough to increase power while still reducing emissions.
If any of you guys have regular dyno access then install a cell (mine or home made) and do some before and after tests. I would love to hear some results.
If you can use a few extra amps to make the fuel more combustable then why not? My stereo and video systems in my rides eat more amps than my hydrogen systems. lol
~Jason
HyrdroHybrids.Net
This will not increase gas mileage (explained in a minute), but it could potentially increase horsepower at certain times (like WOT) if setup correctly.
The reason it can't increase mileage is the simple fact that you can't produce more energy than you consume. What these systems do is they use electrolysis to separate 2 molecules of water into 2 x H2 + O2...pretty simple chemistry class stuff.
However the electricity they use to do that comes from your engine, which is produced by gasoline...so you are using gas to make the hydrogen and oxygen.
This is the whole reason why Hydrogen fuel cells aren't on the road today...
Also if you don't believe something using electricity produced by your engine can reduce your gas mileage...try turning on your AC system full time.
Now that being said, if you used this product to produce the hydrogen while at low boost (storing the hydrogen up in some holding tank), then at high boost turning off the production (and electrical drain), and dumping the hydrogen into the intake, you could see some power....think of a setup like a meth system as far as when you would inject the extra fuel. A setup like this could give you some extra power (although a simple water / meth injection system would be easier).
Some people do this with propane already with some success too.
The other solution would be to produce the hydrogen in your garage at night, by plugging this device into your house electricity using a simple 120 AC to 12 VDC converter (about $20-$50). Again the electricity comes from somewhere and you would have a higher electric bill and somewhere more carbon would spew out of a smokestack, but you could get more horsepower in your car.
Again you will not get increased fuel mileage out of these products running them off your battery though...just as a hybrid does not. A hybrid only increases fuel mileage when you are in stop and go traffic, because it can convert energy from braking back into electricity. If you took a Prius on a road trip and never stopped, it would be no different than any other economy car...
The reason it can't increase mileage is the simple fact that you can't produce more energy than you consume. What these systems do is they use electrolysis to separate 2 molecules of water into 2 x H2 + O2...pretty simple chemistry class stuff.
However the electricity they use to do that comes from your engine, which is produced by gasoline...so you are using gas to make the hydrogen and oxygen.
This is the whole reason why Hydrogen fuel cells aren't on the road today...
Also if you don't believe something using electricity produced by your engine can reduce your gas mileage...try turning on your AC system full time.
Now that being said, if you used this product to produce the hydrogen while at low boost (storing the hydrogen up in some holding tank), then at high boost turning off the production (and electrical drain), and dumping the hydrogen into the intake, you could see some power....think of a setup like a meth system as far as when you would inject the extra fuel. A setup like this could give you some extra power (although a simple water / meth injection system would be easier).
Some people do this with propane already with some success too.
The other solution would be to produce the hydrogen in your garage at night, by plugging this device into your house electricity using a simple 120 AC to 12 VDC converter (about $20-$50). Again the electricity comes from somewhere and you would have a higher electric bill and somewhere more carbon would spew out of a smokestack, but you could get more horsepower in your car.
Again you will not get increased fuel mileage out of these products running them off your battery though...just as a hybrid does not. A hybrid only increases fuel mileage when you are in stop and go traffic, because it can convert energy from braking back into electricity. If you took a Prius on a road trip and never stopped, it would be no different than any other economy car...
I think you are confusing electric hybrids and hydrogen combustion. Two totally different scenarios...the fact that you mentioned regenerative braking for electric hybrids lends me to believe that you are misunderstanding.
This can and should increase gas mileage...it's just a matter of how much. My calculations showed less than what is claimed, but I'm curious for someone to test it anyway.
I think you are misunderstanding the fact that our alternators are already running and producing the current. You are simply using some of the unused current for electrolysis. The alternator is already running off the engine inducing more load on the engine with or without producing the H2 + O2. Your example of turning on the AC is true because the compressor is on a clutch, and it normally isn't on, so turning it on produces drag on the motor, an increased load. But, there is no turning on/off the alternator...it's always running with the engine on.
BTW, your other scenario isn't recommended because you are storing a very highly explosive bomb in your car then. You want the H2+O2 used in realtime so none is stored. The H2+O2 (Brown's gas) is very explosive, in a perfect stoich ratio for combustion, so it wouldn't be a good idea to try to store or pressure some of it for later use under WOT.
Anyway, I don't think we could produce enough to make an impact on WOT performance, even though hydrohybrids mentioned that it could make power at WOT. The ratio will just be too small at large airflows to make a big difference. Idle and low airflow cruise is a different situation altogether.
This can and should increase gas mileage...it's just a matter of how much. My calculations showed less than what is claimed, but I'm curious for someone to test it anyway.
I think you are misunderstanding the fact that our alternators are already running and producing the current. You are simply using some of the unused current for electrolysis. The alternator is already running off the engine inducing more load on the engine with or without producing the H2 + O2. Your example of turning on the AC is true because the compressor is on a clutch, and it normally isn't on, so turning it on produces drag on the motor, an increased load. But, there is no turning on/off the alternator...it's always running with the engine on.
BTW, your other scenario isn't recommended because you are storing a very highly explosive bomb in your car then. You want the H2+O2 used in realtime so none is stored. The H2+O2 (Brown's gas) is very explosive, in a perfect stoich ratio for combustion, so it wouldn't be a good idea to try to store or pressure some of it for later use under WOT.
Anyway, I don't think we could produce enough to make an impact on WOT performance, even though hydrohybrids mentioned that it could make power at WOT. The ratio will just be too small at large airflows to make a big difference. Idle and low airflow cruise is a different situation altogether.
Last edited by l2r99gst; Jun 16, 2008 at 06:09 AM.
I know exactly what I am talking about. I understand a hybrid uses electric motors run off a battery, and that we are talking about igniting hydrogen in the cylinders...either way they are being fueled by electricity, and the hybrid has the regen braking...a normal car will not.
Even if an alternator probably produces more current than is used that miniscule amount is not going to produce enough H2 to have any significant factor on your overall fuel mileage. Electrolysis (sp?) uses a lot of energy. To make a significant amount of hydrogen you will need to step up your alternator, thus using more gas...energy isn't free.
What I was getting at is if you could generate the hydrogen using something other than your alternator, you might get some benefits, or if you stored up the H2.
You are right, it is explosive...so is propane, so is your own gas tank (and they have proper storage containers). I am not saying storing it is some ghetto plastic container. I am just stating what you need to do to make it work.
Lets go back to electricity though...lets say you have a high output 180A alternator, and that you use all 180A solely to make hydrogen. at 13.8V that alternator is producing approx 2.48 kW of energy. Now lets say that you were to use a motor. A 3HP electric motor uses about 2.2 kW of Energy, so using 100% of your alternator, you get about 3HP worth of energy (I am making a broad assumption that an electric motor efficiency is about equal to the efficiency of converting water to molecular components, then running those through a combustion engine).
The reality is that because you want a radio playing, your spark plugs firing, your lights on at night, you will have far less than that 3HP as spare unused energy, and you also probably only have a 100A alternator.
Do you think 1/2HP - 1 HP is going to make a 30% increase in gas mileage???
Even if an alternator probably produces more current than is used that miniscule amount is not going to produce enough H2 to have any significant factor on your overall fuel mileage. Electrolysis (sp?) uses a lot of energy. To make a significant amount of hydrogen you will need to step up your alternator, thus using more gas...energy isn't free.
What I was getting at is if you could generate the hydrogen using something other than your alternator, you might get some benefits, or if you stored up the H2.
You are right, it is explosive...so is propane, so is your own gas tank (and they have proper storage containers). I am not saying storing it is some ghetto plastic container. I am just stating what you need to do to make it work.
Lets go back to electricity though...lets say you have a high output 180A alternator, and that you use all 180A solely to make hydrogen. at 13.8V that alternator is producing approx 2.48 kW of energy. Now lets say that you were to use a motor. A 3HP electric motor uses about 2.2 kW of Energy, so using 100% of your alternator, you get about 3HP worth of energy (I am making a broad assumption that an electric motor efficiency is about equal to the efficiency of converting water to molecular components, then running those through a combustion engine).
The reality is that because you want a radio playing, your spark plugs firing, your lights on at night, you will have far less than that 3HP as spare unused energy, and you also probably only have a 100A alternator.
Do you think 1/2HP - 1 HP is going to make a 30% increase in gas mileage???
Last edited by TearItUpSports; Jun 16, 2008 at 07:44 AM.
You are simply using some of the unused current for electrolysis. The alternator is already running off the engine inducing more load on the engine with or without producing the H2 + O2. Your example of turning on the AC is true because the compressor is on a clutch, and it normally isn't on, so turning it on produces drag on the motor, an increased load. But, there is no turning on/off the alternator...it's always running with the engine on.
Originally Posted by TearItUpSports
Lets go back to electricity though...lets say you have a high output 180A alternator, and that you use all 180A solely to make hydrogen. at 13.8V that alternator is producing approx 2.48 kW of energy. Now lets say that you were to use a motor. A 3HP electric motor uses about 2.2 kW of Energy, so using 100% of your alternator, you get about 3HP worth of energy (I am making a broad assumption that an electric motor efficiency is about equal to the efficiency of converting water to molecular components, then running those through a combustion engine).
The reality is that because you want a radio playing, your spark plugs firing, your lights on at night, you will have far less than that 3HP as spare unused energy, and you also probably only have a 100A alternator.
Do you think 1/2HP - 1 HP is going to make a 30% increase in gas mileage???
The reality is that because you want a radio playing, your spark plugs firing, your lights on at night, you will have far less than that 3HP as spare unused energy, and you also probably only have a 100A alternator.
Do you think 1/2HP - 1 HP is going to make a 30% increase in gas mileage???
Of course, I just did calculation of the added hydrogen and didn't take into any effects on induced load from the alternator. I don't know the efficiencies of alternators and varying current output, but from the post above by merkzu, if the regulator is inducing a larger amount of load on the engine to produce more current, then I would agree, that you shouldn't gain anything. But, I was assuming that our alternators are already producing unused energy that could be used for the electrolysis.
However, I think there may be a certain percentage of unused current, even with the regulation, etc, or something entirely different going on. A few pages back, if you watch the video, a local news team tested one of the devices and actually had good gas mileage increases. Whether that was due to the tuneup and other factors or whether it was due to the h2, I don't know. Again, I don't think that the H2 can make much of a difference either. That was my stance from my initial post. But, I can't do all of the calculations and know everything...which is why I would like to see someone try it and let us know what happens. Even though I don't think it will do much, I'm not close-minded enough to simply say it won't work. I like seeing/testing new things. Theories and math are great, but they don't always match real-world results...especially when some of our calculation are making incorrect assumptions, such as efficiencies, etc, etc.
Last edited by l2r99gst; Jun 16, 2008 at 07:56 AM.
Besides the math not working, I also see that all of these claims that a device is needed to alter the lambda sensor output to see the gains due to "extra O2 in the exhaust". But the HHO being injected should be a stoich mixture, so the HHO + the normal air/fuel mix shouldn't be leaner. I wonder if the gains people are seeing is just from messing with the lambda sensor, leaning out the AFR just like a lot of people already do by putting the car in open loop or using the narrowband sim on a wideband. Maybe the hydrogen allows you to run an even leaner AFR without misfiring.. but then you still have to overcome the extra load from the draw on the alternator so I would still think its a net loss.
I'd like to try one just to put it to rest, but even to make one yourself costs around $100-150 and I'm pretty confident I'd just be throwing it down the drain.
I'd like to try one just to put it to rest, but even to make one yourself costs around $100-150 and I'm pretty confident I'd just be throwing it down the drain.
Anyway here was the response. This was from the HYDRO-4000.
You will see results and yes as long as it is installed before the turbo you will be fine, I apologize for not reponding to you before if you have any questions please contact me anytime.
DJ DellaSala
VP of Distributions
Diversified Energy Group
Office: (561)804-6777
Cell: (904)501-3336
Fax: (561)745-6070
DJ DellaSala
VP of Distributions
Diversified Energy Group
Office: (561)804-6777
Cell: (904)501-3336
Fax: (561)745-6070
Raist
Former Sponsor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 984
Likes: 0
From: Chicagoland
The alternator has a regulator on it that increases the field current to output just what power is needed. The field current acts as the clutch. The alternator can put out anywhere from nothing to its max rated output and the more its putting out the harder it is for the engine to turn
DING DING DING!!!! We have a winner!!!
Hey bob.. show the man what he has just won... Sir, you have just won a NEW CHIP FOR YOUR EVO!!! 100 extra WHP and 35 more MPG!!!!
You sir are a gentleman and a scholar.
Well I cannot say that I am actually pleased with the response that I got. It was really nothing more than a generic sort of response wanting me to buy the product. I may do some more searching to see if I can find a turbo car that is using this thing or something similar.
Anyway here was the response. This was from the HYDRO-4000.
Raist
Anyway here was the response. This was from the HYDRO-4000.
Raist
I would but I hate talking on the phone. My wife claims I have some sort of phobia and is always giving me crap about it.
But it would have been nice if the guy had at least given me some information. I guess he was stuck in sales mode.
Raist
But it would have been nice if the guy had at least given me some information. I guess he was stuck in sales mode.
Raist
9sec240
This one specifies for the Evo but gives less HP and MPG than the other chip.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERFO...m250261006856&
This one that you linked gives more HP and MPG but does not mention the Evo.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/REAL-...m190230334741&
Don’t know if it really matters but one is supposed to give better performance.
Basically these things seem to be a resistor for the most part though one claims they are “tuned for your car” a resistor can’t be tuned though. There might be more to them but some of the similar products that showed a pic seemed to be wires and a resistor.
Thinking about trying one for the wife’s van though just for the heck of it.
Raist
This one specifies for the Evo but gives less HP and MPG than the other chip.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERFO...m250261006856&
This one that you linked gives more HP and MPG but does not mention the Evo.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/REAL-...m190230334741&
Don’t know if it really matters but one is supposed to give better performance.
Basically these things seem to be a resistor for the most part though one claims they are “tuned for your car” a resistor can’t be tuned though. There might be more to them but some of the similar products that showed a pic seemed to be wires and a resistor.
Thinking about trying one for the wife’s van though just for the heck of it.
Raist
Here is a reply from a person seeling the kit that I inquired about. I simply asked him a question about how his kit compensates for leaning the afr reading out to the ecu under hard acceleration. Just to test his knowledge.. His Hick *** answer
"how does it now? you step on the gas......trust me, you'll step on the gas then too....all it does is supplement the fuel.....and I actually have more porew than before...with mine.....actually...thats the first time anyone has ever asked that...my answer is...how do your o2 sensers know not to lean out when you want to accelerate now?.....well, thats the same way it will then..."
I was expecting a more scientific answer such as... Under given conditions such as TPS, MAF/MAP thresholds. Your car will be forced to go into open loop meaning it will ignore the feedback given by your 02 sensor and go to its default set maps.
Here is his stupid vid..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAUZBIGRaQw
Upon further research on my end.. It seems as if this guy bought his HHO fuel cell from magdrive and just put together his own kit from materials readily found. Im not saying HHO will not work as I am ready to experiment with it, but my advice is do alot of research...
"how does it now? you step on the gas......trust me, you'll step on the gas then too....all it does is supplement the fuel.....and I actually have more porew than before...with mine.....actually...thats the first time anyone has ever asked that...my answer is...how do your o2 sensers know not to lean out when you want to accelerate now?.....well, thats the same way it will then..."
I was expecting a more scientific answer such as... Under given conditions such as TPS, MAF/MAP thresholds. Your car will be forced to go into open loop meaning it will ignore the feedback given by your 02 sensor and go to its default set maps.
Here is his stupid vid..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAUZBIGRaQw
Upon further research on my end.. It seems as if this guy bought his HHO fuel cell from magdrive and just put together his own kit from materials readily found. Im not saying HHO will not work as I am ready to experiment with it, but my advice is do alot of research...