To determine if a kit is even possible, we should see the affect that electrical draw has on the engine's hp.

Maybe AMS (since they are in this thread) can do a little experiment.

Take someones car, any car, that has a pretty powerful stereo system in it and put it on the dyno.

First run, keep everything electrical off that can be turned off.

Next have a run where you turn on the lights, wipers, crank the stereo, etc, and see what the hp difference is.

 

As far as electrical draw is concerned most HHO systems use at most a 25 amp PWM to regulate the HHO production to about 1-1.5L /min.

To sum it up here is what I have learned.
1) These systems are not a stand alone system. they are made to supplement unleaded fuel. The atomic nature of Hydrogen causes it to bind easily to other gas molecules, Thus causing gas to burn more effieciently and completely.
2) You will need some sort of device such as an efie(electronic fuel injection enhancer) to trick your 02 reading under closed loop conditions to go lean and use less gas... This is where most of the gas savings come from. If you have a car equipped with an AEM EMS or any other standalone device you can use that.
3) You should only be producing gas while the car is running. Producing gas while your car is off and injecting it into your intake could be dangerous upon re-start. Think of the Hindenburgh or H-bomb. Yes those were H powered devices.


A real test scenario would be just to create a cell that just injects HHO into the air intake and run it on a dyno.. and see if it does indeed create any TQ or whp figures. Do this without touching the fuel maps or timing tables. I am sure you can increase MPG by adding this system simply by the fact that combined with some management you are leaning out your afr's under closed loop. But as far as power that is something that I have to see with my own eyes before I could assume anything.

 

In reference to the wikipedia link that Ivan posted:

Why would an h2o powered car be perpetual motion? If it takes 1L of water to run for an hour and your by-product is h2o that doesn't make it perpetual motion. The h2o byproduct could only be 1oz. Also I understand that the energy used to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen can not create more energy as a direct result of the reaction. However thats not whats turning the wheels, the energy turning the wheels is from the combustion of the Hydrogen, once separated, a completely different reaction. It can be done without breaking the laws of physics or thermodynamics unless I am missing something.

 

Just for the record, I'm a skeptic, but I'm starting to be swayed by a local guy that has done a few of these “hydrogen on demand” systems. It was not his words that has convinced me, but more of his data that he did not interpret correctly. He’s even been able to establish a business with it despite not even fully understanding the way it seems to be working. He’s all about perpetual energy, at least the way he describes it.

Hydrogenhybrids is honestly the ONLY person I have seen pushing these things that has not claimed to be making a perpetual energy device. He seems to be the only person I have come across that actually had a theory that actually holds any water. This theory has absolutely nothing to do with the energy content of the hydrogen. This is great because everything mentioned about hydrogen taking more energy to produce through electrolysis then you can get back on combustion is completely accurate. This is where the perpetual motion idea comes from. Most of these companies clam it takes place of the gasoline as an energy source. Any company claiming such has absolutely no understanding of basic thermodynamic or chemistry principles. Hydrogenhybrids has also made the mistake of lashing out at skeptics though. Do realize that it is the companies selling these things making false claims that have caused the skeptics. Whether or not the idea works has absolutely nothing to do with the BS that so many people are trying to say these machines do.

A couple people have hit the nail on the head exactly in this thread. The voltage adder on the O2 is what is causing the improvement in mpg. It's that simple. If these systems truly do work this is the ONLY reason they improve fuel economy. The voltage adder is lying to the ECU to make the ECU think it is running a richer A/F ratio. The ECU, in closed loop, responds by reducing the injector pulse width and leans out the A/F ratio.

Now, that does not mean that you could just take any car with a standalone and start leaning out the A/F ratio to get the same results. From my own experience, it seems like most premium octane gasoline starts experiencing miss fire issues when you get any leaner then about 15.5:1. With careful tuning, this seems to be about the limit of a "lean burn" type setup that relies on conventional motor design and gasoline. This is still a 5% improvement in fuel economy though and if you have the time and knowledge, should be part of a standalone tune.

For these systems to work and obtain the 15%+ improvements in fuel economy, the hydrogen gas has to be affecting the combustion process enough that the motor can be leaned out dramatically and not experience lean a/f ratio related misfires. I believe this to be pretty likely too, as having tuned a little on E85, I definitely noticed that some fuels can tolerate lean conditions a lot better than other fuels. I have been able to tune E85 to get almost identical mpg as gasoline using this same lean burn technique.

This is nothing new in principle though. Honda actually has a motor that runs at 65:1 a/f ratios. Do some research, it is impressive and they were getting well over 60mpg in a minivan with it. The down fall of that motor was the high NOx emissions due to the high temperatures associated with very lean burn condition.

I’m still a skeptic, but I have an open mind. I would like to tune a car using one of these systems. I would also like to get one of these systems on a dyno with an exhaust gas analyzer. Hum... I actually have a good friend with access to both. Now I just need a test car with an ECU that will allow full control. Forget voltage adders, I’d rather have a wideband in there with a target set to 18:1 A/F ratios.

 

AMP draw most certainly does affect how much power the alternator uses. Find a completely dead battery and place it on the ground next to your car Start your car and then attach jumper cables to your battery and the dead battery (like you were giving somebody a jump start) and see what happens to the idle of your car when you make that final connection. Your idle will drop due to the added resistance the alternator is giving the motor when it increases the amps its outputting to charge the dead battery.

I like your idea also but I think the drop in HP would be very small and almost unnoticeable. Possibly half a HP or so.

 

I am not the best person to answer the question.... but let me try using some of my own thoughts and some quotes from info found on the web.

Lets start by using two terms... "energy" and "energy potential"

The energy potential of HHO obtained by water electrolysis is less than the energy used to create it.

"The energy efficiency of water electrolysis varies widely with the numbers cited below on the optimistic side. Some report 50–70%, while the theoretical maximum efficiency of the electrolysis of water is between 80–94%"

Understanding this, you can see that you are losing some potential energy just making the HHO.

"Combustion of the hydrogen would be converted to rotational kinetic energy by the motor at 25 - 30% efficiency."

Understanding this, you can see you are losing more energy.

"Hence only between 10% to 15% of the energy taken from the battery (or alternator) for electrolysis would be available to recharge the battery"

 

You really hit some great points in your post. We have very similar views.

It is very true that HHO can still be ignited at a MUCH leaner A/F ratio than gasoline. Here is the kicker. The less fuel you use in combustion, the less power you make.

During idle conditions, this would probably not be an issue, but when you actually need power to accelerate or even maintain speed.... it would be an issue. Finding the right A/F ratio for the amount of power to JUST get you by would be the key.... not an easy task.

 

The only way we are going to resolve our discussion is form real world testing. I have been wondering about these devices too, but after reading this I am more confused. Most of the sites I came across are rudimentary, very unprofessional looking and its like watching marketing schemes for buying foreclosures... lot's of hype, but you don't know anyone that has ever succeeded.

 

I think the summary of this whole thread would be:

Hydrogen can be used as a fuel, and would indeed help you gain hp, or use less gas, whichever you prefer.

Leaning the AFR using electronics will increase your gas mileage, and raise your risk of engine damage.

Hydrogen produced solely using electrolysis w/ electricty from your engine's alternator will do absolutely nothing for you (good or bad).




I don't have a strong enough belief in the science of this device to buy one myself, but if someone would like to ship one to me, I will be more than glad to install it on my 2500 mile / month Nissan Versa. I take several short (20 mile) drives per day and some 100 mile + trips which would be a good test bed.
I normally log my gas mileage since I turn mileage reports into work for expense.

 

Your summary isn't that good of a reflection of this thread.

Gain in HP/reduction in fuel use is to be determined.

Leaning out the motor using electronics under closed loop conditions will increase your gas mileage, but is likely to run into misfires. Not really damage though.

Electroysis using the energy from the alternator creates hydrogen and oxygen gas. The effects of this gas when used in a motor are subject to debate.

Agreed though, testing by numerous reliable sources is the only way to find the truth.

My solution to all of this has been a bike and the public transportation system. I typically drive ~2000 miles a month. I've dropped it down to ~800 a month. I'm making it a goal to get down to a tank of gas a month.

 

i dont think you get it... look man, you arent just making the hydrogen with electricity from your alternator...
do you know what POTENTIAL energy is??? ok, the water is the POTENTIAL, you are taking electricity and causing a chemical reaction releasing this other energy, converting it from Potential to Kinetic energy...

make sense??? so give up on the "takes more power than it can make" argument guys... seriously...

it CAN work, just how much wrk will it be and is it worth it... i dont have time to do this anymore, so i'll have to wait and see... i hope someone else does tho!!!

 

if you think about it, using a standalone or some engine management isnt wrong to do to tune out the difference in the HHO, i mean, your stock ecu is DESIGNED to run 93 octane fuel right??? or whatever, gas... so when you add hho ur car is like wtf is this??? i'm lean, add more fuel... yeah, you can wire up a resistor or something to your o2 sensor, but that is the improper way to do it, if you tune a car not on hho, and then tune the SAME car with the SAME afr's and everything on hho, its gonna have better mileage, there is way too many variables to argue here...

you are releasing energy out of the water, yeah you are losing energy, but you are making more than you lose, otherwise it wouldnt work... yeah, it could be a hoax, but there is WAY too much research info everywhere for it to not hold any water... lol... get it... hold any water!!! haha... ok back on topic...

so you are saying it can increase performance but not mileage??? that doesnt make any sense... in this case, the only way it could increase performance is to add fuel right??? didnt yall say something about it taking more energy that it makes??? then there is no way it could INCREASE performance in this case...

(theory wrong)

i wanna know what happens with the sr-20 guy...

 

If you actually read my post you would understand what I am getting at. By your response above, you obviously did not.
If you can prove me wrong, I'll pay for your system.

 

You are mistaken here. You are separating hydrogen and oxygen from the water using energy. The energy potential of this HHO is less than the energy it took from the motor to turn the alternator to produce the electricity to make the HHO. You are then taking this reduced energy potential and burning it in your motor which loses a LOT of energy transferring it to kinetic energy to then spin the alternator to create more HHO.


The SR20 guy is SELLING something. Keep that in mind when evaluating his claims.

 

This "HHO gas" is bogus though.
2 molecules of H2O -> 2 molecules of H2 and 1 molecule of O2

"Brown's gas," or "HHO," or oxyhydrogen gas, if it were to temporarily exist would be shortly transformed into water vapor or the above mentioned combination of gases. This is due to the stability of the various gases under standard conditions. Yet another bunch of BS internet misinformation.