BR presents the new FP BLACK HTA82!
Oct 21, 2009, 11:12 AM
#199
Well IMO FP limited the black when they decided to keep the same turbine wheel as the Red... Why they did this I don't know, prob to help keep spool low but it will hurt the Black's topend. Like R/TErnie stated, the red and the blacks graph will meet up by 8k. The turbines the reason for that. So yes the black will make more peak power but will start to die off and cross the path of the Red in higher rpms. So I don't think the black will make much more topend than the red. Say from 7.5-8.5k. This is because FP decided to keep the same turbine wheel. I do believe that if someone ported the **** out of the turbine housing/hotside and extrude honed it, it may help the black out perform the red in higher rpms. just my .02
Oct 21, 2009, 11:32 AM
#200
ok question for you then. i know the rpm will differ because im putting in 2.3 not a 2.0 built block but from what your saying its not worth it to switch if you already have a red. Now if i did not have a turbo upgrade then cool but im only going to really net 40-50 more whp and more lag 200rpms worth but thats way up top of course. is that the just of it?
Look at Dave's test. This was done on a fully built 2.0! Why did he stop at 7.3k.... hum... maybe because anything above 7.5k the Black starts to match the Red. Just think. A built 2.0 is made to rev to 9k, so Dave stopped for some reason.... This may have been because of him spinning this turbo at 40+psi... right now we don't even know the usable shaft speed compared to the Red... Was he afraid to over spin the Black? Maybe... But above 7.5k the EGTs could be more than the Red at 7.5k at the same boost level because the Black is trying to cram more air through the same size turbine wheel as the Red making the Black just blow hot air, and not making any usable HP... Once again just another thought.
Dave at what boost level did the Black stop making usable power per pound of boost? The Red I believe usually stops making power around 34-37 on a well built car. Anything over 37lbs on a Red usually just starts to create more torque.
Mikey
Last edited by BLKCarbonEVO; Oct 21, 2009 at 11:36 AM.
Oct 21, 2009, 12:16 PM
#203
IMO Correct. Everyone builds their own motor to their own specs and for their own "uses"... Putting your red on a 2.3 will help spool 2-300rpms sooner and if you upgrade to a black your spool would be close to what your Red was on the 2.0. If you want to upgrade that is a choice you are going to have to make. I agree the Black is a great turbo if you want to pick up more power. On a 2.3L I think this black would be great because your not going to see the negative effects of the red turbine wheel because you won't be revving over 8k. Now if you were keeping the 2.0 and revving to 9k then the Black I don't think will help you that much in topend. because your powerband at the track would be 7.5-9k which the black prob won't make anymore power than the red. I would like to see a dyno of the black and red revved up to 8k+.
Look at Dave's test. This was done on a fully built 2.0! Why did he stop at 7.3k.... hum... maybe because anything above 7.5k the Black starts to match the Red. Just think. A built 2.0 is made to rev to 9k, so Dave stopped for some reason.... This may have been because of him spinning this turbo at 40+psi... right now we don't even know the usable shaft speed compared to the Red... Was he afraid to over spin the Black? Maybe... But above 7.5k the EGTs could be more than the Red at 7.5k at the same boost level because the Black is trying to cram more air through the same size turbine wheel as the Red making the Black just blow hot air, and not making any usable HP... Once again just another thought.
Dave at what boost level did the Black stop making usable power per pound of boost? The Red I believe usually stops making power around 34-37 on a well built car. Anything over 37lbs on a Red usually just starts to create more torque.
Mikey
Look at Dave's test. This was done on a fully built 2.0! Why did he stop at 7.3k.... hum... maybe because anything above 7.5k the Black starts to match the Red. Just think. A built 2.0 is made to rev to 9k, so Dave stopped for some reason.... This may have been because of him spinning this turbo at 40+psi... right now we don't even know the usable shaft speed compared to the Red... Was he afraid to over spin the Black? Maybe... But above 7.5k the EGTs could be more than the Red at 7.5k at the same boost level because the Black is trying to cram more air through the same size turbine wheel as the Red making the Black just blow hot air, and not making any usable HP... Once again just another thought.
Dave at what boost level did the Black stop making usable power per pound of boost? The Red I believe usually stops making power around 34-37 on a well built car. Anything over 37lbs on a Red usually just starts to create more torque.
Mikey
very very very intresting my friend. things starting to make sense. I have a brand new red i never bolted it on. its been in my closet sitting since dec 08 im about to send it off to get ported/coated and i was going to sell it pending information of the black. I already have a black on order but i was holding out to see what others that have had multiple turbo upgrades to chim in with there opinion. im going from a stock evo 8 turbo to either the red or black. soo you put it in terms that makes sense to me. might as well bolt the red up and have it lay down as much power as it can then see if 40 more horsepower would really make a difference as far as numbers and feel. whats the spool difference between the red and 35r again. i think kevin has a 35r in his evo if so ill take a ride in that to see if i can feel some lag difference.
Oct 21, 2009, 12:36 PM
#204
blckcarbonevo, you have it all figured out don't you? I can't believe you could even come up with a question for me, you think you know the rest, you should have just typed another paragraph and answer the question on your own! hahaha
Go find a dyno sheet from the badbish and get back to me on why I only pull that car to 8,000 rpm, must be done making power there on that car too..............
Go find a dyno sheet from the badbish and get back to me on why I only pull that car to 8,000 rpm, must be done making power there on that car too..............
Oct 21, 2009, 12:38 PM
#205
very very very intresting my friend. things starting to make sense. I have a brand new red i never bolted it on. its been in my closet sitting since dec 08 im about to send it off to get ported/coated and i was going to sell it pending information of the black. I already have a black on order but i was holding out to see what others that have had multiple turbo upgrades to chim in with there opinion. im going from a stock evo 8 turbo to either the red or black. soo you put it in terms that makes sense to me. might as well bolt the red up and have it lay down as much power as it can then see if 40 more horsepower would really make a difference as far as numbers and feel. whats the spool difference between the red and 35r again. i think kevin has a 35r in his evo if so ill take a ride in that to see if i can feel some lag difference.
My Red hits full boost at 4-4.1k so roughly 1-1.5k faster than a typical 35R.Mikey
Oct 21, 2009, 12:43 PM
#206
blckcarbonevo, you have it all figured out don't you? I can't believe you could even come up with a question for me, you think you know the rest, you should have just typed another paragraph and answer the question on your own! hahaha
Go find a dyno sheet from the badbish and get back to me on why I only pull that car to 8,000 rpm, must be done making power there on that car too..............
Go find a dyno sheet from the badbish and get back to me on why I only pull that car to 8,000 rpm, must be done making power there on that car too..............
Mikey
Oct 21, 2009, 01:05 PM
#207
Well seeing as you can't upgrade to black the red is still a good option for people who want to upgrade their 9 turbo to a red.
The turbine wheel is probably the same because there isn't anymore room for a bigger one or its just as efficient.
The turbine wheel is probably the same because there isn't anymore room for a bigger one or its just as efficient.
Last edited by project_skyline; Oct 21, 2009 at 01:18 PM.
Oct 21, 2009, 01:58 PM
#208
Evolved Member
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Raleigh, Transplanted from Toronto, Canada
Posts: 5,313
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
This couldn't have come at a worst time. Just had my review at work. Getting a decent bonus check. I could buy anyone one of these turbo's right now. DAMMIT. My wife will divorce me. Hell she asked me to hold off on upgrading until year after next. ............Don't know if i can hold on.
Last edited by SmurfZilla; Oct 22, 2009 at 05:14 AM.
Oct 21, 2009, 01:59 PM
#209
Oct 21, 2009, 02:47 PM
#210
I read the first 8 pages of this thread, so forgive me for not reading all of it before posting. We also dyno'd this turbo over a month ago at Cobb Tuning's Mustang dyno. I have power numbers for 27 psi, 33, 36,38,40.5 and 43.3. On average, we were gaining between 12 to 20 psi for each 2 psi of boost. At 40.5 psi, my tune, and a few other changes to the car, we made 686 whp and 584 wtq. I hit boost cut at 43.3, otherwise I would feel comfortable with saying that the 'recovered' rpms after boost cut indicated 712 whp and 614 wtq. The turbo wasn't through at 43.34 psi. A pull or two we made were to 8500 and the power still held very well. I'l try to scan my 40.5 psi dyno sheet and post it in a few minutes. We observed peak torque at about 5600, but our car is a little higher strung than most.We also had wheel spin on the dyno during our 38,40 and 43 psi pulls. You can clearly see it at peak torque (5600 - 6400 rpms) then it settled back down. The logs show the rpm's going up and down when the wheel spin occurred. I stated in the earlier thread that was locked, this turbo is for real. It will become the number 1 street turbo because of it's early spoolup, big numbers and stock boltup configuration.
ADDED: I just read my notes from the dyno day. wheel spin occurred between 5650 and 6500rpms. The DA at the exact time of dyno runs was 2500 feet, for those correcting numbers.
scanner had error on creation to jpg, so I shot pic of pdf file.
ADDED: I just read my notes from the dyno day. wheel spin occurred between 5650 and 6500rpms. The DA at the exact time of dyno runs was 2500 feet, for those correcting numbers.
scanner had error on creation to jpg, so I shot pic of pdf file.
Last edited by 9sec9; Oct 21, 2009 at 03:57 PM.