Fp Red vs Fp Black Direct Swap #'s
Personally I'm excited for the Black. I think in your case it makes sense to go for the black, especially if you can line someone up to buy your never used Red for a good price. I think selling the red for a good price will be harder to do as time progresses, especially when the black's are officially released. People won't be selling their reds for $800, like some would think, but I imagine some people will start selling them for $1500 or even less.
BTW - I think the tail-down on the black started happening at 7k, which would be closer to where you would probably shift with your 2.3L!
BTW - I think the tail-down on the black started happening at 7k, which would be closer to where you would probably shift with your 2.3L!
. then i would have to sell it haaaa and the cycle continues lol 
edit: AHHHH yea shifting at 7k so i would stay in the power band of the turbo efficenty rating intresting read??
ok question. SO your saying in the end the black will make more power or even out??? sounds like your saying the black will produce more power in mid range but MATCH the red up top. so almost like your saying you gain 64 whp from say 4k - 7k then loose it all to match what the red puts out?? SO i gain 64whp and 200 - 250 more rpms of lag and then in end match the red. correct me if im wrong please trying to understand your reasoning. so you saying if a red and black car raced same mods etc the black power car would win but only by a very small margin hints your fact saying its not worth it to buy a black due to marginal gains at best and you get more lag.
What I don't like the the likely curve match of the Red at 7k.No Mikey's not done. I know he can't wait to keep talking!
So let's say that the Black and the Red have identical curves above 6 (I think it was actually 7k that the black starts to show signs of top-end fade compared to the red in Buschur's testing). For 50 dollars difference, wouldn't you like the bigger torque off the line, and the better midrange? I know you likes your torque, Mikey!
As some people have said, if you already have a well built setup that works with the Red, there isn't much reason to jump on the Black, certainly not based on the limited information that is out there.
So let's say that the Black and the Red have identical curves above 6 (I think it was actually 7k that the black starts to show signs of top-end fade compared to the red in Buschur's testing). For 50 dollars difference, wouldn't you like the bigger torque off the line, and the better midrange? I know you likes your torque, Mikey!
As some people have said, if you already have a well built setup that works with the Red, there isn't much reason to jump on the Black, certainly not based on the limited information that is out there.
so since you have a red your not jumping on the black till lots more test come out and even at best if your not gaining much you will just keep your red? i have a red but never was installed just trying to see if its worth it for me to buy a black. all information points to if i had no upgrade then black is a option but to switch out and spend more money is not worth it. you pay 100 more for a gain in power that does no seem to last long. besides i have a 2.3 nothing above 8k for me lol.
If you look at my dyno graph, Dan's dyno graph, Ryu's dyno graph, R/TErnie's Dyno graph, all reds hit a torque wall between 6.8-7.2k! This is a huge problem for a turbo that wants to make power. R/TErnie and I are experimenting on a few things over the next month and our gains should be interesting and I'll keep the community in touch.... As I always do DAN!!!
They thing is that a Black will experiance that same wall beacuse it has the exact same turbine wheel and turbine housing. The hotside is what makes 90% of turbos start to die above 7k. Why do you think GT series turbos don't fall off! BINGO the hotside is a lot different and its bigger. The hotside is the limiting aspect to all stock appearing turbos IMO.
Mikey
ahh i got buyers for mine new ppi extreme ported/coated. if not i would just buy it outright first. i just know even with all the parts im putting on this motor i could run high boost but whats the point. 40psi alittle extreme and not to mention NO e85 here period. So has to be on 93 and i refuse to run meth. also seems like this might be a drag turbo mostly. i rather have a all around preformer. lol i rather not be the one that test it on 30-35 psi on 93 and get megar results at best . then i would have to sell it haaaa and the cycle continues lol
edit: AHHHH yea shifting at 7k so i would stay in the power band of the turbo efficenty rating intresting read??
. then i would have to sell it haaaa and the cycle continues lol edit: AHHHH yea shifting at 7k so i would stay in the power band of the turbo efficenty rating intresting read??
Mikey
^I've never lost confidence in your willingness to speak!
You do have me interested in what you and the magic-man have in the works, though!
One question when you refer to racing. Do you mean at the strip or on the road, etc.? At the strip I think the black takes it (assuming all things equal) but I don't think it would be an embarassment (based on numbers I've seen).
On the road, like you are saying, in the upper rpms you are basically neck and neck (again, assuming all things equal).
Rockman - I don't think the Black is just a drag turbo. If the powers that be think it matches the red up top then it may not be worth the $50 difference to change what you have. In your case, I'd lean toward the black.
You do have me interested in what you and the magic-man have in the works, though!
One question when you refer to racing. Do you mean at the strip or on the road, etc.? At the strip I think the black takes it (assuming all things equal) but I don't think it would be an embarassment (based on numbers I've seen).
On the road, like you are saying, in the upper rpms you are basically neck and neck (again, assuming all things equal).
Rockman - I don't think the Black is just a drag turbo. If the powers that be think it matches the red up top then it may not be worth the $50 difference to change what you have. In your case, I'd lean toward the black.
I think that a black can see 500hp on 93 with your setup. First you need to get the black, second you need a magnus v5 so you can running higher boost and more timing on pump, third you need to PORT THE **** out of the Turbine housing, Exhaust manifold, get the biggest 02 housing you can find (external dump will be better for topend), and 3" or lager exhaust, do a cold air intake if you don't have ACD, and get a Garrett 3.8 FMIC! Your goal should be to get as much of the exhaust gases out of the cyclenders as you can! I would even go as far as putting a larger cam in the exhaust side than the intake side. Simple tricks like this will help you max out your black!
Mikey
Mikey
I'm on the stock ECU doing SD and I VTA. I don't think that should be an issue for you. I'm running 470whp on the red on a stock block, but I have a HFC, not an open dump, etc. I think my build is more on the conservative side where Mikey likes to squeeze the blood out of a stone!
I run meth, but you would be on a 2.3L so I think what Mikey says is definitely achievable on your build! BTW - I'm actually putting a mid-muffler in to quiet myself down even more. Otherwise I'd beg and plead for that open dump.
I run meth, but you would be on a 2.3L so I think what Mikey says is definitely achievable on your build! BTW - I'm actually putting a mid-muffler in to quiet myself down even more. Otherwise I'd beg and plead for that open dump.
Last edited by yahu; Oct 23, 2009 at 11:43 AM.
Mikey
no go for open dump. i want my car fast but not loud and annoying. again im happy if i run 10.99 and can compete in road course racing events thats all im after. also have the motor ready to turn up boost or swap turbo and NOT HAVE TO BUY MORE STUFF. im sticking with stock ecu until mellon hits a wall with it.
im running stock ecu period so negate anything that requires another ecu. my orginal goal was just 500 then parts starting falling into place and i ended up buying tons of good parts so im just rolling with it. IM not trying to MAX out either the red or black. i dont need the strongest setup just room to grow is all im asking for. o2 dump is not happening i dont need my car loud as hell otherwise ill get a headache and people dont like riding in loud annoying cars. the cops here leave modded cars alone unless they are extremely loud then you will get harassed. im happy with my mod list and im not changing out what i already have only stuff thats not on the car will be considered. im making a custom tubular manifold and getting kelford 272 after i get this double pumper from mike. I just bought some pte 1000cc injectors last night crazy deal brand new for 200 shipped so im happy with that. i dont need my car breaking again hence why im doing such a massive build at one time. i rather over build and not be pushing it near its therashold. if the black is going to fall off at 8k or above then that sounds like its better suited for 2.3 evo rather then 2.0 we stay in the powerband and will see its benifits more.
The dump, first off is not loud at all! You can't even hear it unless you are racing. Mine doesn't even open till 23lbs of boost. This is such a bad understanding of dumps that people can't understand. A dump will really let your car breath above 4k at WOT. Because all of the wastegate gases that normally flow back into the exhaust line create a lot of backpresure! So dumping them to the atmosphere removes that problem allowing the Turbine housing to operate more efficently.
1. A normal evo if tested has about 6psi of back presure in a exhaust line, pushing back against the turbine housing that I have been talking about for the past hour, making it less efficent. If you external dump the wastegate gases you will lower the overall exhaust gas psi by 2psi! That doesn't sound like much but it's truly worth about another 25-30hp above 4k across the whole powerband; and the bigger the turbo the larger the gains!
2. The external dump 02 housing will also allow your car to spool faster and hold boost more effiently. Now I'll explain. A normal 02 housing is a divided 02 housing and the exhaust gases flowing past the wastegate opening, inside the 02 housing, are creating a negative presure against the wastegate flapper actually sucking it open earlier! If you break the wastegate opening off of the exhaust flow you won't have the negative presure anymore! This also help you hold more boost in higher rpms as your wastegate duty cycle changes. It doesn't have to work as hard and it will hold more boost just from dumping the wastegate to the atmosphere. So spiking 30psi and dropping to 23psi won't happen anymore. It will still drop but maybe only to 25-26psi. This is true and has been tested 100 times! It works
My car for example spikes 31lbs and drops to 29lbs at 7.8k. Not many other stock appearing cars do that.Also why in the world did you buy a double pumper? That is def not needed unless you are going E85, and your not...
Mikey
I'm on the stock ECU doing SD and I VTA. I don't think that should be an issue for you. I'm running 470whp on the red on a stock block, but I have a HFC, not an open dump, etc. I think my build is more on the conservative side where Mikey likes to squeeze the blood out of a stone!
I run meth, but you would be on a 2.3L so I think what Mikey says is definitely achievable on your build! BTW - I'm actually putting a mid-muffler in to quiet myself down even more. Otherwise I'd beg and plead for that open dump.
I run meth, but you would be on a 2.3L so I think what Mikey says is definitely achievable on your build! BTW - I'm actually putting a mid-muffler in to quiet myself down even more. Otherwise I'd beg and plead for that open dump.
I think the biggest thing limiting you is your CAT! That ***** is taking atleast 25hp from you
I'm not squezzing anything YET. Wait till I start turning the boost up. I might even be able to beat Ryu on less boost and on pump meth. Not race gas....shh..sshhh...
Mikey
Yah, I know. It is coming out. BTW - I was talking about how much you squeezed out of the stock turbo setup previously. I know you have a ways to go!
I was looking at the big map with Aaron last time I was down there. It looks friggin' sweet!
I was looking at the big map with Aaron last time I was down there. It looks friggin' sweet!
I think your car starts to fall becasue of the CAT. I really want to see that graph. Get that baby up Dan
.Mikey