Fp Red vs Fp Black Direct Swap #'s
^He has red on the brain. He meant that he doesn't believe the black can produce anymore power above 7k than the red. Chad pays him a compliment publicly and look what happens! 
You guys are funny if you think the black curve will meet the red curve at high rpm. Are you forgetting Robert is a turbo genius and knows how to make a turbo? power falling off up top is very setup related. look at 9sec9 graph of black at 40+psi. it holds torque well to 8500. I think you theorize too much that it wont work better than red because it uses same turbine wheel. You forget that the bigger compressor wheel will be turning slower than than the red so the back pressure will escape better at lower turbine speeds.
blkcarbonevo, look at the dyno graphs again.
It's pretty obvious that the Black has NOT changed the engine VE curve by any appreciable amount. The RED has flat lined by 7300, the black has done similar. They are both on the decent by that time, just look at the torque curves. They are nearly identical on slope. That Black is going to hold that 50 HP advantage as high as you care to rev it. Yes, HP peaks by 7300, but the power peaks on the red on that setup at the same point. Neither one of them is going to rev out to 9k well. That's not what the system (turbo, manifold, head, cams, etc.) is setup for.
If you want a setup to rev out to 9k, you are using the wrong turbo and manifold. END OF STORY.
Both of these turbos are built for street cars. These aren't Hondas, most street 4G63s don't rev past 8000.
To me, it looks like FP probably hit their goal. A fast spooling turbo capable of putting an *** beating on any other stock framed turbo and MOST T3 setups.
It's pretty obvious that the Black has NOT changed the engine VE curve by any appreciable amount. The RED has flat lined by 7300, the black has done similar. They are both on the decent by that time, just look at the torque curves. They are nearly identical on slope. That Black is going to hold that 50 HP advantage as high as you care to rev it. Yes, HP peaks by 7300, but the power peaks on the red on that setup at the same point. Neither one of them is going to rev out to 9k well. That's not what the system (turbo, manifold, head, cams, etc.) is setup for.
If you want a setup to rev out to 9k, you are using the wrong turbo and manifold. END OF STORY.
Both of these turbos are built for street cars. These aren't Hondas, most street 4G63s don't rev past 8000.
To me, it looks like FP probably hit their goal. A fast spooling turbo capable of putting an *** beating on any other stock framed turbo and MOST T3 setups.
..... It uses the same turbine wheel as a red. It will only flow a certain lbs/min no mater how big of a compressor wheel it has. The turbine wheel is where the magic happens for "top-end" power.... "theoriticly" the EGTs should be higher in the Black than the Red and both of them having the same usable shaft speed means the Black would start blowing "hot air" sooner than the Red and suffer more in topend than the Red!
That a turbocharger's turbine wheel exclusively(as opposed to its compressor), " ... is where the magic happens for top-end power".
That a turbocharger's compressor flow will be the same, regardless of compresor wheel size, given the same turbine wheel.
That no matter how large the comp wheel, a turbo's compressor flow is absolutely limited by turbine wheel size.
That the FP Black turbo suffers in topend flow compared to the FP Red turbo.
That EGT's will be significantly higher when using the Black vis-a-vis the Red due to the Black being configured with a larger comp wheel than the Red.
That the Black's larger comp wheel will blow "hot air"(higher compressor discharge temps) at lower shaft speeds than the Red's smaller comp wheel.
Finally, I am prepared to hash out each of the foregoing points, one by one, because I am 61 years old and have nothing better to do with my remaining time.
Last edited by sparky; Oct 24, 2009 at 10:39 PM. Reason: The gnawing spiral of Boost!
IMHO 60hp difference at 40+psi of boost isnt that great for guys who are just going to be running around on stock motors and less than 30psi. The gains at this level compared to the red probably wont be that substantial, at least not enough to warrant the decreased spool/increase in price. Now if you're running high boost, built motor, full build all out on race gas, that's a different story. But then again if you were doing that a T3 turbo would probably be the better option. my 2 sense
IMHO 60hp difference at 40+psi of boost isnt that great for guys who are just going to be running around on stock motors and less than 30psi. The gains at this level compared to the red probably wont be that substantial, at least not enough to warrant the decreased spool/increase in price. Now if you're running high boost, built motor, full build all out on race gas, that's a different story. But then again if you were doing that a T3 turbo would probably be the better option. my 2 sense
It will be interesting to see the black as more and more third party evo owners start to put down some numbers.
Mikey
I agree 100%, but I'm too young to waste time and effort arguing the points.
I disagree with the following generalizations and assumptions as quoted from the paragraph above:
That a turbocharger's turbine wheel exclusively(as opposed to its compressor), " ... is where the magic happens for top-end power".
That a turbocharger's compressor flow will be the same, regardless of compresor wheel size, given the same turbine wheel.
That no matter how large the comp wheel, a turbo's compressor flow is absolutely limited by turbine wheel size.
That the FP Black turbo suffers in topend flow compared to the FP Red turbo.
That EGT's will be significantly higher when using the Black vis-a-vis the Red due to the Black being configured with a larger comp wheel than the Red.
That the Black's larger comp wheel will blow "hot air"(higher compressor discharge temps) at lower shaft speeds than the Red's smaller comp wheel.
Finally, I am prepared to hash out each of the foregoing points, one by one, because I am 61 years old and have nothing better to do with my remaining time.
That a turbocharger's turbine wheel exclusively(as opposed to its compressor), " ... is where the magic happens for top-end power".
That a turbocharger's compressor flow will be the same, regardless of compresor wheel size, given the same turbine wheel.
That no matter how large the comp wheel, a turbo's compressor flow is absolutely limited by turbine wheel size.
That the FP Black turbo suffers in topend flow compared to the FP Red turbo.
That EGT's will be significantly higher when using the Black vis-a-vis the Red due to the Black being configured with a larger comp wheel than the Red.
That the Black's larger comp wheel will blow "hot air"(higher compressor discharge temps) at lower shaft speeds than the Red's smaller comp wheel.
Finally, I am prepared to hash out each of the foregoing points, one by one, because I am 61 years old and have nothing better to do with my remaining time.
I disagree with the following generalizations and assumptions as quoted from the paragraph above:
That a turbocharger's turbine wheel exclusively(as opposed to its compressor), " ... is where the magic happens for top-end power".
That a turbocharger's compressor flow will be the same, regardless of compresor wheel size, given the same turbine wheel.
That no matter how large the comp wheel, a turbo's compressor flow is absolutely limited by turbine wheel size.
That the FP Black turbo suffers in topend flow compared to the FP Red turbo.
That EGT's will be significantly higher when using the Black vis-a-vis the Red due to the Black being configured with a larger comp wheel than the Red.
That the Black's larger comp wheel will blow "hot air"(higher compressor discharge temps) at lower shaft speeds than the Red's smaller comp wheel.
Finally, I am prepared to hash out each of the foregoing points, one by one, because I am 61 years old and have nothing better to do with my remaining time.
That a turbocharger's turbine wheel exclusively(as opposed to its compressor), " ... is where the magic happens for top-end power".
That a turbocharger's compressor flow will be the same, regardless of compresor wheel size, given the same turbine wheel.
That no matter how large the comp wheel, a turbo's compressor flow is absolutely limited by turbine wheel size.
That the FP Black turbo suffers in topend flow compared to the FP Red turbo.
That EGT's will be significantly higher when using the Black vis-a-vis the Red due to the Black being configured with a larger comp wheel than the Red.
That the Black's larger comp wheel will blow "hot air"(higher compressor discharge temps) at lower shaft speeds than the Red's smaller comp wheel.
Finally, I am prepared to hash out each of the foregoing points, one by one, because I am 61 years old and have nothing better to do with my remaining time.
I'm talking about the turbine wheel only being able to flow a certain lbs/min. You can have a huge compressor wheel but that won't make the turbine wheel/housing flow any better than the Red. Go look at 90 percent of all Reds that are in the mid 500s. Depending on cams and other supporting mods this may shift a bit, but between 6.5-7.2k the Reds, and I think the Blacks will too, hit a torque wall where they nose dive to the ends of the earth. THIS IS DUE TO THE TURBINE WHEEL/HOUSING BEING TO SMALL! You can't argue that point, it's just plain fact! The T25 housing is destroying the flow capacity above that given point. We have met and maxed out the housing capacity! This is why Robert was trying to design a custom cast turbine housing to fit a T3 turbine wheel in to help with the flow capacity but there is still a lot of R&D going into that design.
Having the larger compressor wheel will lower the maximum usable shaft speed. This is why the Red has a lower usable shaft speed than the green and now the black I believe will have a lower usable shaft speed than the Red... Yes you will be able to make more power on lower boost because of the efficiency of the compressor wheel but I still don't like the inverse effect that the Red turbine wheel will create on the Black. The Turbine Housing/wheel is the largest limiting factor in the Black!
Having a stock exhaust system on a Red would simulate the same effect of having the Black with a Red turbine wheel. Try it sometime and see what happens! The Red with the stock exhaust will have great lowend and midrange power (which is what the Black simulates) but will lack topend performance because of the inverse effect of the Turbine side of the Turbo.. Remove the exhaust and do a straight 3in dump and wow you just picked up 60+hp from 5-8k. It is amazing how much the Exhaust housing can limit a turbo. It is highly important to have balanced setup!
Mikey
I am trying to design a custom housing to fit a T3 turbine wheel? Why? They spin the wrong direction 
Would it surprise anyone to learn that the back pressure on the Black flowing 60lb/min is actually LOWER than the back pressure on a Red flowing 60lb/min? I bet you didnt expect that, but you dont find out what REALLY happens until you test these things out of course, which is exactly what we have been doing over the last few months with this particular turbo wheel combo. I am surprised by the very small number of calls I am getting on this topic, any of you are welcome to call me and ask whatever you like, I answer the tech support line personally on most days
Booston!
Robert
Would it surprise anyone to learn that the back pressure on the Black flowing 60lb/min is actually LOWER than the back pressure on a Red flowing 60lb/min? I bet you didnt expect that, but you dont find out what REALLY happens until you test these things out of course, which is exactly what we have been doing over the last few months with this particular turbo wheel combo. I am surprised by the very small number of calls I am getting on this topic, any of you are welcome to call me and ask whatever you like, I answer the tech support line personally on most days
Booston!
Robert
But it appears you are assuming it is the turbine sinde and not the compressor on the red that is causing the wall at a certain power level. It could just as well be the compressor wheel running out of even some other part of the build choking off at that point and not the turbo in any way. Do you have any real data showing that the turbine housing can only flow X amount?
Later
My post is too BLKCarbonEVO not Robert. I am pretty certain Robert has test data to support his decisions.
Later
My post is too BLKCarbonEVO not Robert. I am pretty certain Robert has test data to support his decisions.
Would it surprise anyone to learn that the back pressure on the Black flowing 60lb/min is actually LOWER than the back pressure on a Red flowing 60lb/min? I bet you didnt expect that, but you dont find out what REALLY happens until you test these things out of course, which is exactly what we have been doing over the last few months with this particular turbo wheel combo.
Robert
Robert
Can you post the back pressure testing for the red and the black, and even the HTA green if you have it handy?
How does the back pressure compare at 50 lb/min?
Eric