I'm going to have to side with David on this you guys are seriously over thinking this

there are those who talk and those who do

 

And the OEM "did"...
The factory fuel rail is designed to dampen fuel pulses.

So did Honda...
They incoprerate a pulse damper into their fuel rail

I guess they were over thinking it?

Or is the average aftermarket company underthinking it?

 

TedB, E85 has made over 700 whp in 3rd gear on our dyno on the single line, for reference.

Over thinking or underthinking. That requires thought too. I have to go more along the lines of Mellon's statement but change it a bit. There are those who think and those that do. Since I have no degree or title to put next to my name all I can do is, do. I do things many times 10-15 times before I get it right. In the case of the fuel system on the EVO, you could perform some testing and get some F1 parts to incorporate and turn a $500 fuel system we offer into a $2500 fuel system and pack it in a plastic case and sell it. At the end of the day though, I can assure you that the $500 system works, will supply the fuel and has proven itself.

I get customers and posts from haters to really get me fired up at times. (not referring to this thread.........not yet anyway! haha) For example. Slorice's engine is here on the stand to be put together. I noted it had standard bore pistons set aside for it. I went OFF, knowing darn good and well that there is no way that this block could possible make standard bore and have the bores square/straight. I was freaking pissed that the machine shop did nothing but a clean hone on it. You know why I was so mad? From people's ignorance and hate that I have to tolerate, posts here or an e-mail etc. I broke out the bore gauge and checked it..........well guess what, the haters can "bow down" because the bores in this block are dead-nuts on. Should I be shocked? NO, because in 21 years of doing this our machine shop has done nothing but quality work for us. I let people's comments get in my head and now I am right back to normal by proof of what works. As a side note, Slorice's engine is the original engine from his car and the one I did the tear down video with 15-20,000 miles on it. Pretty amazing at power levels to go 9's that block stayed square and in excellent shape.

Also, I got with AEM about the sampling rate that I logged the fuel pressure at. The rate was 250 hz, 250 samples/sec, so it sampes every .004 seconds. That's not fast enough? Sheesh, sure seems like it to me.

 

this thread has to be one of the most informative I've ever read

I just wanted to thanks those that are contributing and debating in a well mannered fashion

it's nice to see disagreement not leading to fighting

subscribed

 

One other thing.............I am not running 4 EGT's like R/T said he doubted anyone was. I have run them and after much testing and much datalogging I found the cylinders to be so even that over time we quit using them. It's a lot of extra hassle and wiring. Somewhere I have the notes, using AEM's EGT kit each located about 2" off the head in the primaries the variance was in the 60 F range per runner.

 

So Mellon,
when I make more horsepower in my Evo than you have in yours... then you'll believe me? Seems odd to base informational integrity on a number rather than experience or research.

I work with several Engineers that hail from Detroit and worked on this particular issue which I've had several very long conversations about. It seems every OEM has a full time staff for this particular issue. Injecting diesel at 36,000PSI seems far more of a feat than at 43.5PSI. You can nay say all you want... its a real issue.

Go talk to Tony Palo. He makes more power than you do...and runs faster times than Dave with a FWD car. I'm pretty sure his Motec logs fuel pressure at the required rate to see the phenomenon happening.

 

Is there any fuel pressure datalogs on the net which used the type of sensor equipment you guys speak of on a sequential injection car?

And also, would you not need a pressure sender before each injector as well to prove some injectors are seeing less pressure than others?

 

your sensor only reads @15milliseconds MAX @ 63% of the rated sensor pressure (5bar). fYour uel systems run at 3 bar idling and just over 5 bar in boost.

So your sensor can output a BEST of 15ms during idle and is overwhelmed as soon as you hit positive pressure. I can only assume that the sampling rate goes down in a linear fashion from there as you reach 5 bar injection pressures...

I would say its safe to say that your sensor outputs at a 30ms rate AT BEST.

I've logged @ 1ms in the dynocells and CAN log at the natural frequency of the pressure transducer... which is much faster yet.

Remember...it's the Kia of sensors.

 

Not to stir a pot, but by the same logic... the stock shortblock has also made 700whp... must mean that the rods and pistons were cut out for it. The stock rods and pistons are perfectly adequate to 700whp because someone did it once.

 

I don't think you'll ever see this data posted on the net. I'm sure its confidential information that would get someone fired if they posted that up on the net LOL.

And yes the rail would be fully instrumented with MORE than 4 sensors on the rail.

 

I'm definitely aware of that, before this discussion was started. All I'm doing is giving a 'heads up' about things that are happening right now, beneath the surface. These types of unseen things can cause problems at some point, later if not sooner. If the info on fuel line sizing helps you or the masses, than it was worth making it known.

As for thinking vs. doing, we know you come from the school of cut and try testing, and there's nothing wrong with that. We like reading about the results. As for us 'thinkers' who chose a different professional path than modifying/tuning cars, lending our thoughts, at no charge, is how we participate in contributing information.

 

Doing something once is different than doing it 500 times, which is closer to how many double pumpers we sold than 1. I think the point is, some of you guys are just overthinking this.

43 psi of pressure a lot less is going to happen than at the 36,000 psi. It's like the stock intake, under 550 whp a ported stock intake is your best choice, over that there are better choices. At 43 psi I'd venture to guess all this high end technology is basically worthless, if you started injecting the fuel at 36,000 psi then it would for sure be a completely different story. Luckily for us we only need "43" psi.

 

Ted and R/T, thank you both for your input, I appreciate it actually. I just feel like you both are trying to say "The BR double pumper is not well thought out and has issues."

I like to hear the other side of something, even if at times it seems I don't. It makes me think and then go back to the drawing board and do more testing.

What you guys have to undestand that many times doing something on paper and then changing a part, such as the fuel line, is completely uneeded. I don't know what you are is making for power now Ted but I'd venture to guess it's less than mine and if you had our standard double pumper on the car with the single factory line you had spent less money, time, effort and the car would still be making the same reliable power it is now. Would you agree? I am not insulting you, I am simply making a point that many times it seems doing something on paper ends up costing more and the results are no better than going with the easier "hillbilly proven method".

Thanks for the input from both of you, I'm not hating, but do feel like you guys are somehow trying to bring a great idea/product down.

 

R/T - I think whatever point you are trying to make is getting lost in the gibberish you are typing.

 

David, not at all. On the contrary, the BR double pumper is the best part of the system. All I am saying is that the factory line becomes a bit like a restrictive exhaust system at big power levels. The double pump system is the strong link in the chain, the factory fuel line the weak one. That's all. If you're going to do anything with the line, now you know what to do and what you get from it.


I can think of a hundred ways I could have saved money. LOL I upgraded to larger, Teflon lines before anyone really knew what E85 would do or if it would be incompatible. I wanted to get every bit of pump capacity, so we upgraded the lines, power and ground wiring, etc. I figured if I was going to spend anything on it, I'd do it once and do it as well as I could. It wasn't terribly expensive.