T3/T4 Bolt-on Turbo Kits
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Originally posted by Fourdoor
This is exactly how Mitsubishi set it up. This is why a bone stock EVO makes more power on 93 octane than it does on 91 octane. The ECU advances timing until it hears knock and then retards it a little. I know that 93 gives you more power for this reason, and I would suspect that 100 unleaded would give awesome power with no tuning used....but I am not sure how far mitsubishi's stock ignition maps will push the issue. If Buschur can make 380 HP at the front wheels on an AFC it seems like it would work pretty damn good for anyone who plans to stick with the stock turbocharger.
Keith
This is exactly how Mitsubishi set it up. This is why a bone stock EVO makes more power on 93 octane than it does on 91 octane. The ECU advances timing until it hears knock and then retards it a little. I know that 93 gives you more power for this reason, and I would suspect that 100 unleaded would give awesome power with no tuning used....but I am not sure how far mitsubishi's stock ignition maps will push the issue. If Buschur can make 380 HP at the front wheels on an AFC it seems like it would work pretty damn good for anyone who plans to stick with the stock turbocharger.
Keith
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From: nj
Originally posted by ItsStockOfficer
First of all, making one post with multiple quotes might be a bit of a cleaner solution. Second of all head never taken off block 4G63 with 160k made over 100 passes... the slowest I ever ran being 12.6, that fastest being 11's at ~119 MPH. It saw 24 psi daily; I beat the living **** out of it. It never lost a single PSI of compression in any cylinder. It had merely an AFC for tuning, and was as fast as Al's car (albeit 300 lb's lighter) off the bottle.
My current GSX has 230 thousand miles, original engine, a bigger turbo and 720's, and still nothing but an AFC.... drag racing, carving through mountains or going 160+ mph.
Ryan Fellows EVO has 493 whp. The car is the only car he drives, completely daily driven, and it uses an....AFC.
Without an SAFC, you generally try to keep knock under 7-9 counts on 91 octane. This yield very mild timing pull while still allowing you to be lean enough to make power.... On a stock car this yields roughly 17 degrees of ignition timing. Running richer might yield as much as 22-24 degrees of timing with as little as 0-4 counts of knock but on 91 octane, it will not feel good.
That only applies to a stock car though. On a heavily modified car you want to keep knock fewer than 7-9 counts on 91 octane. This yield very mild timing pull while still allowing you to be lean enough to make power.... Running richer might yield as much as 22-24 degrees of timing with as little as 0-4 counts of knock but on 91 octane, it will not feel good.
****, that’s the same thing at both 180 and 420 whp.
The knock system DOES save the car every time you step on the gas. Take a stock EVO at 20 psi and move the knock sensor to the glove box. Listen carefully (Ping ping ping ping). The knock sensor is NOT a back up safety device. It’s a completely integral part of your cars ability to allow the amazing level of performance it offers reliably.
I am NOT suggesting using the afc without fuel upgrades, but all the afc does is allows the car too operate at a lower load value (inherently more aggressive) area on its timing map. It's still not as aggressive as the timing maps likely created by Dynoflash or Shiv....
Generally there are not flaws in the timing maps, especially at full throttle, which tends to be conservative. Most off the lot pinging occurs at partial throttle within a certain rev range.
I am going to say in fact that the SAFC, used in conjunction with larger injectors, is both easy to learn and very safe to use up until the 400 whp area. Controlling your own ignition timing is something you should not do until you are confident about how your car reacts to fuel tuning. The AFC allows you to get the timing you deserve, but it does not cause you to get too much, and it does not cause you to get too little (at full throttle). At partial throttle you have both an O2 sensor and fuel trims to allow the car to adjust. Just get it in the ballpark. Easy as pie.
I have tuned EMS's. In fact I owned the first one ever sold for the first generation eclipse. Timing control still makes me wary, it’s not for the faint of heart. I am not talking about adding a few degrees here and there, but the remapping of your timing table. It is a powerful thing you’re playing with.
Nothing beats the ease, safety and on the fly tuneability of the SAFC for low-mid powered cars.
I'd put 11 seconds on it (again and again and again)
First of all, making one post with multiple quotes might be a bit of a cleaner solution. Second of all head never taken off block 4G63 with 160k made over 100 passes... the slowest I ever ran being 12.6, that fastest being 11's at ~119 MPH. It saw 24 psi daily; I beat the living **** out of it. It never lost a single PSI of compression in any cylinder. It had merely an AFC for tuning, and was as fast as Al's car (albeit 300 lb's lighter) off the bottle.
My current GSX has 230 thousand miles, original engine, a bigger turbo and 720's, and still nothing but an AFC.... drag racing, carving through mountains or going 160+ mph.
Ryan Fellows EVO has 493 whp. The car is the only car he drives, completely daily driven, and it uses an....AFC.
Without an SAFC, you generally try to keep knock under 7-9 counts on 91 octane. This yield very mild timing pull while still allowing you to be lean enough to make power.... On a stock car this yields roughly 17 degrees of ignition timing. Running richer might yield as much as 22-24 degrees of timing with as little as 0-4 counts of knock but on 91 octane, it will not feel good.
That only applies to a stock car though. On a heavily modified car you want to keep knock fewer than 7-9 counts on 91 octane. This yield very mild timing pull while still allowing you to be lean enough to make power.... Running richer might yield as much as 22-24 degrees of timing with as little as 0-4 counts of knock but on 91 octane, it will not feel good.
****, that’s the same thing at both 180 and 420 whp.
The knock system DOES save the car every time you step on the gas. Take a stock EVO at 20 psi and move the knock sensor to the glove box. Listen carefully (Ping ping ping ping). The knock sensor is NOT a back up safety device. It’s a completely integral part of your cars ability to allow the amazing level of performance it offers reliably.
I am NOT suggesting using the afc without fuel upgrades, but all the afc does is allows the car too operate at a lower load value (inherently more aggressive) area on its timing map. It's still not as aggressive as the timing maps likely created by Dynoflash or Shiv....
Generally there are not flaws in the timing maps, especially at full throttle, which tends to be conservative. Most off the lot pinging occurs at partial throttle within a certain rev range.
I am going to say in fact that the SAFC, used in conjunction with larger injectors, is both easy to learn and very safe to use up until the 400 whp area. Controlling your own ignition timing is something you should not do until you are confident about how your car reacts to fuel tuning. The AFC allows you to get the timing you deserve, but it does not cause you to get too much, and it does not cause you to get too little (at full throttle). At partial throttle you have both an O2 sensor and fuel trims to allow the car to adjust. Just get it in the ballpark. Easy as pie.
I have tuned EMS's. In fact I owned the first one ever sold for the first generation eclipse. Timing control still makes me wary, it’s not for the faint of heart. I am not talking about adding a few degrees here and there, but the remapping of your timing table. It is a powerful thing you’re playing with.
Nothing beats the ease, safety and on the fly tuneability of the SAFC for low-mid powered cars.
I'd put 11 seconds on it (again and again and again)
BTW very good numbers and we need to get a couple things straight here. I am in no way saying that power cannot be had with the AFC. My opinion and my approach to tuning relys on the fact that not every car or enviroment are identical. With that being said , There are huge differences between an engine that makes 180 and 420 WHP.
Ignition curves between just two vehicles, with identical mods and in different weather conditions can have a variance up to and not limited to 10 degrees of ignition lead. Quality of fuel , type of induction system, boost pressure, volumetric efficiency, torque peak and a slew of other things can affect an engines ability to combust the mixture at a given load and rpm. Allowing the stock load and rpm site , delegated by an A/F correction device, to provide the appropriate timing advance or initial spark IMHO is not accurate nor safe.
At 180 WHP the timing curves will not be the same as those in a more power vehicle. You could argue that again with the BSFC rate being the same and just larger injectors , you would just again negatively affect the output setting from the AFC to accomidate this. Unfortunately you get to a point where you may be TOO aggressive down low and not enough across the board. Or vice versa. You cant rely on the stock ECU to just adapt to octane or higher cylinder pressure the way you are describing. The stock knock sensor is a feedback system only. It is there to help prevent destruction from a bad tank of gas or just plain old preignition from abnormally high cylinder pressures.
I cant see how the stock ignition system and ECU will directly adjust timing lead above factory specs because you decided that day to run 100 octane and not 91. It just doesnt work that way. Yes it will retard based on knock. It will retard dramtically in some cases! But to say that it continuously advances is technically not true. You were right in your first post that it will advance in direct relation to airflow. But engine speed , TPS play a larger role in this.
The stock mapping is generic. It is meant for you to pass emmisions in lamens terms. That is why you see such an improvement when the ecu is reflashed with new timing and fuel plots.
The post that was made about a reflash and piggyback is a great idea. I commented on this in one of vishnus (shiv) posts a while back. I believe it to be a powerful combination. Where you need very little correction to make the vehicle efficient for its specific application.
Also you are right the knock sensor is a completely integral part of the systems package for reliability. No argument here. BUT a more optimal tune for a specific upgrade or modification to the system is what i believe to be ideal. The knock feedback "system" would be in place as a safety device only for the inherant qualities i mention earlier in this post.
You also mention that the stock mapping isnt full of flaws. In stock form you are completely right it is conservative as are all the ecu' s in todays OBDII compliant enviroment. All the more reason that when in a lower (more aggresive) load site the ignition lead will become more of a factor. In the midrange or partial throttle application when cylinder pressures and volumetric efficiency is about to peak that is when we need to pay close attention to the ignition characteristics of the ecu.
Yes it will pull timing. Keep you safe. But will kill performance. You are not in the optimal mode to make power efficiently. Does that mean you cant make an additional 100 HP with the AFC no way. You can make alot more. I personally prefer to tune as optimally as possible for max power thruout the rpm band as efficiently and aggressively as possible on PUMP gas.
I have to slightly disagree with your next statement which says that the AFC will give you the timing your require. The AFC will only change your load site. NOT rpm or throttle. At partial throttle you maybe on your way to full boost. I have to check on this but i recall that the EVO at a specific throttle % will go into open loop. Somewhere in the area of 30%. That will negate the possibiltiy of O2 feedback responsibility. The stock generic mapping will take over that will rely on rpm, tps and airflow for fueling and ignition curves. Then you pray that detonation doesnt persist and too much timing is pulled from the system.
There are too many variable to list. What is known is that at the boost pressures these cars run at and the cylinder pressures that engine will see from day to day in different enviroments, i dont see how people feel safe without getting the proper tune for their modifications made to the vehicle.
ISO i agree with 80 % of the posts you make in this forum so dont think i am in any way saying your wrong. This is your opinion in the matter and you have the right to speak of it. My experience dictates a different path and approach to performance and reliability.
I am glad we can even have this discussion with everyone providing such useful information. Thanks for your time.
My 2 1/2 cents
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Oh, I agree completely perfworks....We seems to be able to have technical discussions, where the insults are kept to an amusing minimum.
Now, as for partial throttle, off boost. That really can be ignored relatively safely, because airflow is the same on a 200 or 400 hp car. A car with larger exhaust and a better intake will flow better, a car with a larger exhaust fill flow a bit less, because you tend to stay out of boost a bit more. So at these low cruising conditions, you might gain a few more degrees of timing, but it tends to make no real difference, as even with 40 degrees advancement, 91 octance can ussually handle producing the 40-80 hp you realistically tend to use off boost on a low compression engine. A 1g DSM transistions bewteen open and closed loop at something like 78% throttle. Then a/f ratios go from 14-15:1 to 11-10:1. I doubt the EVO would do such a thing at 30%
As for transition, you would be surprised how similair it can be, generally between stock a mild upgrade the difference is between 300 and 400 rpm, with the airflow being pretty damn until you begin to reach over 16 psi. The ecu can compensate very well. At this level. In my experiance.
So really the only tricky part for me is full throttle, and on any DSM I have ever tuned, on any gas, it tunes for roughly 20-24 degrees at full throttle. So were we reach the question, is that optimal. Thats something that we can't really answer, but in general on a car like this you will continue to make more power beyond that point, which is why I call that a conservative tune. At full throttle there are really only 2 things that affect timing. Knock and airflow. Its all map based. Use the afc to keep knock low, and then that will lead to you getting decent timing.
I one had a DSM that ran 11.9@118. It ras running on 110 octane unleaded and 550's that were almost completely maxed out. Despite the fact I was only geeting 0-3 counts of knock(a very normal level, you'd lift your head before damage occured) the timing I was getting was dropping off at high throttle. When I put iin 720's and dropped my airflow to something the ecu didn't think was rediculous, I got the same knock, more timing, and thus lower EGT's, because I was getting what I deserved.
These affects are all going to be weaker on the EVO because the 1g DSM flows much less air from the factory. 75 hp less.
Now, I agree, any car here will be faster on a more in depth tune, thats not my arguement, I am merely arguing that the safc take 15 minutes to be comfotable with, and is safe. ESPECIALLY with a stock turbo.
As for the car not relying on the knock sensor, get a logger and log it. They knock everytime you floor it and pull out some timing everytime you floor it, from the factory. The factory cars are simply built to rely on the knock sensor. Its not a fall back saftety device, its a device inherently used to tune the cars ignition curve based on what it can get away with. and thats fine, because they can respond to knock that is so fast and so quiet it nothing. Most people here will drive there car, logging 3-9 counts everytime they floor it, pulling out ignition timing to the most aggressice level deemed acceptable, and never know that without that knock sensor being used to tune their ignition curves they would have blown a engine long ago.
Its the same in the car world everywhere. Mustangs and Camaros with kncok systems add a bunch of ignition timing, then count on a system that can react in micro seconds to sounds impossible to hear to protect them. It works very well.
Now, as for partial throttle, off boost. That really can be ignored relatively safely, because airflow is the same on a 200 or 400 hp car. A car with larger exhaust and a better intake will flow better, a car with a larger exhaust fill flow a bit less, because you tend to stay out of boost a bit more. So at these low cruising conditions, you might gain a few more degrees of timing, but it tends to make no real difference, as even with 40 degrees advancement, 91 octance can ussually handle producing the 40-80 hp you realistically tend to use off boost on a low compression engine. A 1g DSM transistions bewteen open and closed loop at something like 78% throttle. Then a/f ratios go from 14-15:1 to 11-10:1. I doubt the EVO would do such a thing at 30%
As for transition, you would be surprised how similair it can be, generally between stock a mild upgrade the difference is between 300 and 400 rpm, with the airflow being pretty damn until you begin to reach over 16 psi. The ecu can compensate very well. At this level. In my experiance.
So really the only tricky part for me is full throttle, and on any DSM I have ever tuned, on any gas, it tunes for roughly 20-24 degrees at full throttle. So were we reach the question, is that optimal. Thats something that we can't really answer, but in general on a car like this you will continue to make more power beyond that point, which is why I call that a conservative tune. At full throttle there are really only 2 things that affect timing. Knock and airflow. Its all map based. Use the afc to keep knock low, and then that will lead to you getting decent timing.
I one had a DSM that ran 11.9@118. It ras running on 110 octane unleaded and 550's that were almost completely maxed out. Despite the fact I was only geeting 0-3 counts of knock(a very normal level, you'd lift your head before damage occured) the timing I was getting was dropping off at high throttle. When I put iin 720's and dropped my airflow to something the ecu didn't think was rediculous, I got the same knock, more timing, and thus lower EGT's, because I was getting what I deserved.
These affects are all going to be weaker on the EVO because the 1g DSM flows much less air from the factory. 75 hp less.
Now, I agree, any car here will be faster on a more in depth tune, thats not my arguement, I am merely arguing that the safc take 15 minutes to be comfotable with, and is safe. ESPECIALLY with a stock turbo.
As for the car not relying on the knock sensor, get a logger and log it. They knock everytime you floor it and pull out some timing everytime you floor it, from the factory. The factory cars are simply built to rely on the knock sensor. Its not a fall back saftety device, its a device inherently used to tune the cars ignition curve based on what it can get away with. and thats fine, because they can respond to knock that is so fast and so quiet it nothing. Most people here will drive there car, logging 3-9 counts everytime they floor it, pulling out ignition timing to the most aggressice level deemed acceptable, and never know that without that knock sensor being used to tune their ignition curves they would have blown a engine long ago.
Its the same in the car world everywhere. Mustangs and Camaros with kncok systems add a bunch of ignition timing, then count on a system that can react in micro seconds to sounds impossible to hear to protect them. It works very well.
Last edited by ItsStockOfficer; Dec 26, 2003 at 12:49 PM.
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Has anyone here actually seen these things perfworks is talking about happen? Including you perfworks? I have seen the 4G63 community relying on SAFC for 10 years without a hitch...The ECU simply does not allow detonation to occur, and if you tune decently at all, it will won't have to provide any more protection then stock. ****, I lean it out 34% and advance base timing....
Originally posted by ItsStockOfficer
So what your saying is that the way mitsu set it up is that it DOES rely on the knock sensor. IE the opposite of what perfworks says. And you're right. And the 16g turbo is relatively small. AFC's will work for larger turbos well.
So what your saying is that the way mitsu set it up is that it DOES rely on the knock sensor. IE the opposite of what perfworks says. And you're right. And the 16g turbo is relatively small. AFC's will work for larger turbos well.
I had my Galant VR-4 running on an old school AFC in conjunction with a VPC for a long time with no issues, and know of many more running high HP figures on just the AFC.
As you said, the stock ECU advances timing until you get knock and then pulls back a little. That is why you get more power on 94 octane out of a bone stock EVO than you do on 91 Octane. I know the DSM's ECU would "learn" over time (very quickly) what fuel you were running and set your timing accordingly instead of constantly relying on the knock sensor, perhaps that is what perfectworks is refering too. This "knock learning" is why no matter what you do with your setup you will alway have some knock counts...the ECU is checking to see if you have put some "good gas" in the car. One of the TMO ECU mods was to force the ECU into "good gas" maps at every start up... does the EVO ECU have the same system of learning what ignition map to use based on past knock sensor values? If yes, then using the AFC and larger injectors to lower your airflow signal to the ECU will never put you higher on the ignition maps than the stock ECU can handle....it will switch you to the apropriate ignition map (less advance) if you have a high knock count. If that happens richen it up a little and try again
Later,
Keith
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Originally posted by Fourdoor
Yup, I agree with you completely.
I had my Galant VR-4 running on an old school AFC in conjunction with a VPC for a long time with no issues, and know of many more running high HP figures on just the AFC.
As you said, the stock ECU advances timing until you get knock and then pulls back a little. That is why you get more power on 94 octane out of a bone stock EVO than you do on 91 Octane. I know the DSM's ECU would "learn" over time (very quickly) what fuel you were running and set your timing accordingly instead of constantly relying on the knock sensor, perhaps that is what perfectworks is refering too. This "knock learning" is why no matter what you do with your setup you will alway have some knock counts...the ECU is checking to see if you have put some "good gas" in the car. One of the TMO ECU mods was to force the ECU into "good gas" maps at every start up... does the EVO ECU have the same system of learning what ignition map to use based on past knock sensor values? If yes, then using the AFC and larger injectors to lower your airflow signal to the ECU will never put you higher on the ignition maps than the stock ECU can handle....it will switch you to the apropriate ignition map (less advance) if you have a high knock count. If that happens richen it up a little and try again
Later,
Keith
Yup, I agree with you completely.
I had my Galant VR-4 running on an old school AFC in conjunction with a VPC for a long time with no issues, and know of many more running high HP figures on just the AFC.
As you said, the stock ECU advances timing until you get knock and then pulls back a little. That is why you get more power on 94 octane out of a bone stock EVO than you do on 91 Octane. I know the DSM's ECU would "learn" over time (very quickly) what fuel you were running and set your timing accordingly instead of constantly relying on the knock sensor, perhaps that is what perfectworks is refering too. This "knock learning" is why no matter what you do with your setup you will alway have some knock counts...the ECU is checking to see if you have put some "good gas" in the car. One of the TMO ECU mods was to force the ECU into "good gas" maps at every start up... does the EVO ECU have the same system of learning what ignition map to use based on past knock sensor values? If yes, then using the AFC and larger injectors to lower your airflow signal to the ECU will never put you higher on the ignition maps than the stock ECU can handle....it will switch you to the apropriate ignition map (less advance) if you have a high knock count. If that happens richen it up a little and try again
Later,
Keith
Yes, I love the simplicity of the s-afc. It is so simple and allows a car to run so well. My cars makes around 500whp and is my daily driver. The stock ECU is always there to give me great driveability and I still have a lot of safety too.
I highly recommend the s-afc/reflash combo to anyone wanting to keep all the reliablity of their stock car and still making a ton of power.
We have been using piggy backs for a long time. We make great power, they are super reliable and give great driveability.
We have also tuned and used standalones, but I perfer them more for our race cars not daily driven street cars.
I highly recommend the s-afc/reflash combo to anyone wanting to keep all the reliablity of their stock car and still making a ton of power.
We have been using piggy backs for a long time. We make great power, they are super reliable and give great driveability.
We have also tuned and used standalones, but I perfer them more for our race cars not daily driven street cars.
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From: nj
Originally posted by ItsStockOfficer
Oh, I agree completely perfworks....We seems to be able to have technical discussions, where the insults are kept to an amusing minimum.
Now, as for partial throttle, off boost. That really can be ignored relatively safely, because airflow is the same on a 200 or 400 hp car. A car with larger exhaust and a better intake will flow better, a car with a larger exhaust fill flow a bit less, because you tend to stay out of boost a bit more. So at these low cruising conditions, you might gain a few more degrees of timing, but it tends to make no real difference, as even with 40 degrees advancement, 91 octance can ussually handle producing the 40-80 hp you realistically tend to use off boost on a low compression engine. A 1g DSM transistions bewteen open and closed loop at something like 78% throttle. Then a/f ratios go from 14-15:1 to 11-10:1. I doubt the EVO would do such a thing at 30%
As for transition, you would be surprised how similair it can be, generally between stock a mild upgrade the difference is between 300 and 400 rpm, with the airflow being pretty damn until you begin to reach over 16 psi. The ecu can compensate very well. At this level. In my experiance.
So really the only tricky part for me is full throttle, and on any DSM I have ever tuned, on any gas, it tunes for roughly 20-24 degrees at full throttle. So were we reach the question, is that optimal. Thats something that we can't really answer, but in general on a car like this you will continue to make more power beyond that point, which is why I call that a conservative tune. At full throttle there are really only 2 things that affect timing. Knock and airflow. Its all map based. Use the afc to keep knock low, and then that will lead to you getting decent timing.
I one had a DSM that ran 11.9@118. It ras running on 110 octane unleaded and 550's that were almost completely maxed out. Despite the fact I was only geeting 0-3 counts of knock(a very normal level, you'd lift your head before damage occured) the timing I was getting was dropping off at high throttle. When I put iin 720's and dropped my airflow to something the ecu didn't think was rediculous, I got the same knock, more timing, and thus lower EGT's, because I was getting what I deserved.
These affects are all going to be weaker on the EVO because the 1g DSM flows much less air from the factory. 75 hp less.
Now, I agree, any car here will be faster on a more in depth tune, thats not my arguement, I am merely arguing that the safc take 15 minutes to be comfotable with, and is safe. ESPECIALLY with a stock turbo.
As for the car not relying on the knock sensor, get a logger and log it. They knock everytime you floor it and pull out some timing everytime you floor it, from the factory. The factory cars are simply built to rely on the knock sensor. Its not a fall back saftety device, its a device inherently used to tune the cars ignition curve based on what it can get away with. and thats fine, because they can respond to knock that is so fast and so quiet it nothing. Most people here will drive there car, logging 3-9 counts everytime they floor it, pulling out ignition timing to the most aggressice level deemed acceptable, and never know that without that knock sensor being used to tune their ignition curves they would have blown a engine long ago.
Its the same in the car world everywhere. Mustangs and Camaros with kncok systems add a bunch of ignition timing, then count on a system that can react in micro seconds to sounds impossible to hear to protect them. It works very well.
Oh, I agree completely perfworks....We seems to be able to have technical discussions, where the insults are kept to an amusing minimum.
Now, as for partial throttle, off boost. That really can be ignored relatively safely, because airflow is the same on a 200 or 400 hp car. A car with larger exhaust and a better intake will flow better, a car with a larger exhaust fill flow a bit less, because you tend to stay out of boost a bit more. So at these low cruising conditions, you might gain a few more degrees of timing, but it tends to make no real difference, as even with 40 degrees advancement, 91 octance can ussually handle producing the 40-80 hp you realistically tend to use off boost on a low compression engine. A 1g DSM transistions bewteen open and closed loop at something like 78% throttle. Then a/f ratios go from 14-15:1 to 11-10:1. I doubt the EVO would do such a thing at 30%
As for transition, you would be surprised how similair it can be, generally between stock a mild upgrade the difference is between 300 and 400 rpm, with the airflow being pretty damn until you begin to reach over 16 psi. The ecu can compensate very well. At this level. In my experiance.
So really the only tricky part for me is full throttle, and on any DSM I have ever tuned, on any gas, it tunes for roughly 20-24 degrees at full throttle. So were we reach the question, is that optimal. Thats something that we can't really answer, but in general on a car like this you will continue to make more power beyond that point, which is why I call that a conservative tune. At full throttle there are really only 2 things that affect timing. Knock and airflow. Its all map based. Use the afc to keep knock low, and then that will lead to you getting decent timing.
I one had a DSM that ran 11.9@118. It ras running on 110 octane unleaded and 550's that were almost completely maxed out. Despite the fact I was only geeting 0-3 counts of knock(a very normal level, you'd lift your head before damage occured) the timing I was getting was dropping off at high throttle. When I put iin 720's and dropped my airflow to something the ecu didn't think was rediculous, I got the same knock, more timing, and thus lower EGT's, because I was getting what I deserved.
These affects are all going to be weaker on the EVO because the 1g DSM flows much less air from the factory. 75 hp less.
Now, I agree, any car here will be faster on a more in depth tune, thats not my arguement, I am merely arguing that the safc take 15 minutes to be comfotable with, and is safe. ESPECIALLY with a stock turbo.
As for the car not relying on the knock sensor, get a logger and log it. They knock everytime you floor it and pull out some timing everytime you floor it, from the factory. The factory cars are simply built to rely on the knock sensor. Its not a fall back saftety device, its a device inherently used to tune the cars ignition curve based on what it can get away with. and thats fine, because they can respond to knock that is so fast and so quiet it nothing. Most people here will drive there car, logging 3-9 counts everytime they floor it, pulling out ignition timing to the most aggressice level deemed acceptable, and never know that without that knock sensor being used to tune their ignition curves they would have blown a engine long ago.
Its the same in the car world everywhere. Mustangs and Camaros with kncok systems add a bunch of ignition timing, then count on a system that can react in micro seconds to sounds impossible to hear to protect them. It works very well.
I do believe that you guys are making good numbers. ( Those running just AFC's) I again want to stress my point as being that i prefer to tune as optimally as possible rather than relying on the stock configurations.
Now back to your post.
In partial throttle OFF boost as you say, the only way the airflow will be the same between two vehicles, will be if they are either both bone stock or have identical induction and exhaust mods.
VE can vary from vehicle to vehicle just by simple mechanical tolerances not being to spec.
But any way for ****s and giggles i will agree for the most part with that statement so long as the vehicles are as described above. It is the boosted portion i am interested in.
Different induction mods will induce or force air thru the runner earlier or later in the rpm band (compared to a stock setup).
If a much larger turbo is used then i think we can both safely agree that the airflow at the same given xxx rpm will be much greater than the previous turbo. Suffice it to say the ignition and fueling of the engine will have to change accordingly.
My understanding thru your points is that at THAT point you are relying solely on the knock sensor to detect detonation and report back with retard commands. Correct?
I can see your point here guys. Dont think i dont. I just dont think that it is the safest way to tune. For a mild turbo upgrade i think you may get away with it. I know it is hard to argue with enough trial and error the DSM community has done in this field. But i will always stress the need for a more balanced approach to ignition tuning and FUEL for that matter than relying on the stock ecu.
""" quote"""
Now, I agree, any car here will be faster on a more in depth tune, thats not my arguement, I am merely arguing that the safc take 15 minutes to be comfotable with, and is safe. ESPECIALLY with a stock turbo."""
I agree with this one hundred percent.
Actually i agree with the majority of your post. I am merely stating that i tune for max power and rely on the knock system only as a protective devise against detonation.
Your suggestions have inspired me though. I will do two things. I will tune with the AEM this week. Then take that out and run an AFCII. I am curious to see how much of a difference i would see realistically on an identical setup just with EMS changes.
I think that alot of what we are saying is close to the same. I just believe that we are interpreting it differently when it comes to the knock system.
Thank you for the fantastic conversation.
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 298
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From: nj
Originally posted by Fourdoor
Yup, I agree with you completely.
I had my Galant VR-4 running on an old school AFC in conjunction with a VPC for a long time with no issues, and know of many more running high HP figures on just the AFC.
As you said, the stock ECU advances timing until you get knock and then pulls back a little. That is why you get more power on 94 octane out of a bone stock EVO than you do on 91 Octane. I know the DSM's ECU would "learn" over time (very quickly) what fuel you were running and set your timing accordingly instead of constantly relying on the knock sensor, perhaps that is what perfectworks is refering too. This "knock learning" is why no matter what you do with your setup you will alway have some knock counts...the ECU is checking to see if you have put some "good gas" in the car. One of the TMO ECU mods was to force the ECU into "good gas" maps at every start up... does the EVO ECU have the same system of learning what ignition map to use based on past knock sensor values? If yes, then using the AFC and larger injectors to lower your airflow signal to the ECU will never put you higher on the ignition maps than the stock ECU can handle....it will switch you to the apropriate ignition map (less advance) if you have a high knock count. If that happens richen it up a little and try again
Later,
Keith
Yup, I agree with you completely.
I had my Galant VR-4 running on an old school AFC in conjunction with a VPC for a long time with no issues, and know of many more running high HP figures on just the AFC.
As you said, the stock ECU advances timing until you get knock and then pulls back a little. That is why you get more power on 94 octane out of a bone stock EVO than you do on 91 Octane. I know the DSM's ECU would "learn" over time (very quickly) what fuel you were running and set your timing accordingly instead of constantly relying on the knock sensor, perhaps that is what perfectworks is refering too. This "knock learning" is why no matter what you do with your setup you will alway have some knock counts...the ECU is checking to see if you have put some "good gas" in the car. One of the TMO ECU mods was to force the ECU into "good gas" maps at every start up... does the EVO ECU have the same system of learning what ignition map to use based on past knock sensor values? If yes, then using the AFC and larger injectors to lower your airflow signal to the ECU will never put you higher on the ignition maps than the stock ECU can handle....it will switch you to the apropriate ignition map (less advance) if you have a high knock count. If that happens richen it up a little and try again
Later,
Keith
I do "think" (because i havent logged the stock ecu yet) that for the most part the ecu will learn on many fronts.
I dont believe though that it knows or will ever know the type of gas you are using. This was evident when we see various vehicles getting reflashed and developing more power once tuned for a pecific octane rather than the generic california emmision based mapping the stock evo's have. Or at least seem to have. Alot of this seems to be speculation the more i read about it though. Reason for this is WE haven't taken the reflash route. I would like to hear from Shiv or Al or anyone who has access to the stock mapping. This may help in exactly pinpointing when an how the ECU learns and reacts with such changes. We have just jumped a couple of steps and offered fully reliable EMS that are pretuned and just need some refinement based on eviromental and performance demands across the country.
The stock ecu if like many, will keep advancing till it reaches its goal. What i mean by that is that it will keep the lead that it is programmed to keep at the specific load , engine speed rate , air temp and airflow among many other things. At the point where it hasn't met it requirements and sees detonation it will retard and then start the process over again into the next load and rpm site. It will do this continually for the duration of the drive cycles.
So yes we seem to be sayin the same thing. I just, i guess, am expressing it in a different light. Not that anyone is wrong or right. Dont misunderstand me, we are just explaining it differently.
I must say it is an interesting thread and i am very glad it continued in this path. You learn something new everyday i guess. I am very interested to see what happens with our setup.
I will let you guys know.
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
From: nj
Originally posted by RnR Racing
Yes, I love the simplicity of the s-afc. It is so simple and allows a car to run so well. My cars makes around 500whp and is my daily driver. The stock ECU is always there to give me great driveability and I still have a lot of safety too.
I highly recommend the s-afc/reflash combo to anyone wanting to keep all the reliablity of their stock car and still making a ton of power.
We have been using piggy backs for a long time. We make great power, they are super reliable and give great driveability.
We have also tuned and used standalones, but I perfer them more for our race cars not daily driven street cars.
Yes, I love the simplicity of the s-afc. It is so simple and allows a car to run so well. My cars makes around 500whp and is my daily driver. The stock ECU is always there to give me great driveability and I still have a lot of safety too.
I highly recommend the s-afc/reflash combo to anyone wanting to keep all the reliablity of their stock car and still making a ton of power.
We have been using piggy backs for a long time. We make great power, they are super reliable and give great driveability.
We have also tuned and used standalones, but I perfer them more for our race cars not daily driven street cars.
I would really be interested in seeing your dyno graph with just the AFC if you could post a link to it.
Also are you flashed or stock ecu right now?
Thanks in advance for your responces
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 369
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Ryan was running 110 octane, and daily he tends to mix 110 and 91. Theres a 110 pump a few miles away from both his house and shop and he's gotten rather addicted....He is stock ECU.
As for the knock sensor, the important thing to remember is that it is hearing knock at such high frequencys and minor levels when it begins retard. It would not even be heard or considered knock by your typical V8 tuner.
As for whether its optimal or not....DSM's have been lasting 200 thousand miles and 14 years relying on the knock sensor for tuning, not as a back up safety device, and they never break, so its hard to argue with those results....
Also, remember that the ECU knock detection system is far far more sophisticated then the EMS system. The ECU hears voltage blips and stores them, and its "counts" are a compendium of not only how loud its knocking but how often.
Whats your raw knock threshold before you start pulling timing on your EMS setup? Over a volt?
As for the knock sensor, the important thing to remember is that it is hearing knock at such high frequencys and minor levels when it begins retard. It would not even be heard or considered knock by your typical V8 tuner.
As for whether its optimal or not....DSM's have been lasting 200 thousand miles and 14 years relying on the knock sensor for tuning, not as a back up safety device, and they never break, so its hard to argue with those results....
Also, remember that the ECU knock detection system is far far more sophisticated then the EMS system. The ECU hears voltage blips and stores them, and its "counts" are a compendium of not only how loud its knocking but how often.
Whats your raw knock threshold before you start pulling timing on your EMS setup? Over a volt?
Originally posted by ItsStockOfficer
As for whether its optimal or not....DSM's have been lasting 200 thousand miles and 14 years relying on the knock sensor for tuning, not as a back up safety device, and they never break, so its hard to argue with those results....
As for whether its optimal or not....DSM's have been lasting 200 thousand miles and 14 years relying on the knock sensor for tuning, not as a back up safety device, and they never break, so its hard to argue with those results....
Keith
Check out our web site. We are updating it a lot so you guys can get more info and pics on our products. www.rnrracing.com
We have also made some cahnges to our turbo kits since they have been introduced. It nothing, but good these for you guys.
We will have testing done in a couple weeks on our standard bearing kits. I will be tesing the SC61 very soon. We are hoping for 550whp and a very fast spool up.
We found a slightly new manifold desing we are using to get an even better spool up then before.
We have also made some cahnges to our turbo kits since they have been introduced. It nothing, but good these for you guys.
We will have testing done in a couple weeks on our standard bearing kits. I will be tesing the SC61 very soon. We are hoping for 550whp and a very fast spool up.
We found a slightly new manifold desing we are using to get an even better spool up then before.
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
Originally posted by Fourdoor
One thing to remember, you can end up with a "dead" knock sensor. If the damn thing gets too warm it actually melts a little and "goo" comes out of it. When this happens it becomes less and less sensative until it is totally useless.
Keith
One thing to remember, you can end up with a "dead" knock sensor. If the damn thing gets too warm it actually melts a little and "goo" comes out of it. When this happens it becomes less and less sensative until it is totally useless.
Keith