car knocks bad over 23psi.
yes it's 93 octane...and I will ask my tuner tomorrow if he can send me some logs I am going to check my spark plugs today...hopefully it's something easy and stupid.
the only two reasons it may be my headgasket is he said after the first pull the car would get hot and my coolant overflow tank loses a little coolant but then it stops and I don't lose anymore
the only two reasons it may be my headgasket is he said after the first pull the car would get hot and my coolant overflow tank loses a little coolant but then it stops and I don't lose anymore
I'd replace those plugs anyway, .023 is fine for gap. You could probably run more but its not the reason its knocking.
Something seems to be pissing off your knock sensor it seems at 23 psi. Whats your IDC's btw, any idea?
So junior didn't tune it this time, can we just know who did so we aren't suggesting things that aren't needed or not.
Question to the OP. Did you replace the valve springs and retainers or is it still stock? I don't see that mod in your signature. If it's still stock, I think that may be the issue because from what I heard, you'll need to have stronger springs like the double beehive springs to handle the Kelford cams. By the way, when taking pic, try to focus on the item you're trying to show, not the background.
First off, stop running those damn copper pugs!!!! Go buy a set of NGK Iridium IX plugs(BPR8EIX). Gap them to about .030 and check for misfires. If the engine has misfires in boost, re-gap them down .001 until you no longer have misfires. You want to run the most gap you can on your setup.
You need to ultimately find the cause of your knock and wither it's false or not. But, you should change your plugs regardless.
Also, if you MUST insist on running inferior NGK copper electrode plugs, change them at every oil change, as they WILL wear very fast. The Iridium plugs will not wear nearly as fast and will be more consistent while they wear, due to their small Iridium electrode. Also, Iridium has a MUCH higher melting point than copper and does not sacrifice conduction of electricity. Copper is a very good conductor of electricity, but has a relatively low melting point. Iridium is the best option by FAR, for any engine and any power levels.
I have done a lot of testing of different spark plugs on lot's of different platforms, so my experience in this matter is vast. I found the NGK Iridium IX plugs to be the best on the market. I talk about spark plugs a lot, so i'm gonna hit you with a lot of info.....please forgive the long post.
Like stated above, i have posted a lot of info on this subject over the years, please search my name "iTune" + Spark Plugs to see them all.
Let me know if you have any questions.
You need to ultimately find the cause of your knock and wither it's false or not. But, you should change your plugs regardless.
Also, if you MUST insist on running inferior NGK copper electrode plugs, change them at every oil change, as they WILL wear very fast. The Iridium plugs will not wear nearly as fast and will be more consistent while they wear, due to their small Iridium electrode. Also, Iridium has a MUCH higher melting point than copper and does not sacrifice conduction of electricity. Copper is a very good conductor of electricity, but has a relatively low melting point. Iridium is the best option by FAR, for any engine and any power levels.
I have done a lot of testing of different spark plugs on lot's of different platforms, so my experience in this matter is vast. I found the NGK Iridium IX plugs to be the best on the market. I talk about spark plugs a lot, so i'm gonna hit you with a lot of info.....please forgive the long post.
Originally Posted by iTune
A worn plug will do two things.
1. The electrode will wear and round. When this happens, it makes it hard for the spark to discharge and jump the gap to the ground strap. The electrode needs to have a sharp edge from which the spark can arc from. If the edges are rounded, the arc is less consistent. This is why i always push the Iridium plugs, because they wear slower and have a very small electrode from which the spark can arc easily, even when slightly worn.
2. As the electrode and ground strap erode, the gap opens up. If you were already very close to running the largest gap you could with your set-up, as these two variables erode, the gap will open and eventually be too big for the spark to jump, under load.
Also, the stock ignition system will have a hard timing keeping up at high boost levels and rich AFRs, this will require a smaller gap, which in turn, hinders the spark plugs ability to expose the ignition source to the fuel mixture. You want to run the largest gap you can get away with. Unfortunately, the stock system has it's limits and you'll eventually need to upgrade the ignition system in order to be able to run more gap.
Take my advice and go get a set of NGK Iridium IX plugs.
For non-MIVEC use:
Protruding tip: BPR*EIX(insert plug temp here*)
Non-Protruding tip: BR*EIX(insert plug temp here*)
side note: A non-protruding spark plug will run in half heat ranges. So a BR8EIX plug will be a heat range of 8.5(1.5 colder heat range than stock), whereas a BPR8EIX will be a heat range or 8(1 heat range cooler than stock). The higher the number, the colder the heat range. Stock heat range is 7 BTW(BPR7EIX).
The spark plug has two main jobs. 1. To ignite the air/fuel mixture. 2. To release heat from the combustion chamber through the plugs insulator and thus into the plug and heat sinked into the head where the coolant can transfer the heat away from the head. You must also make sure you're correctly torquing the plug, to insure a proper seat from which the plug can heat sink to the head.
1. The electrode will wear and round. When this happens, it makes it hard for the spark to discharge and jump the gap to the ground strap. The electrode needs to have a sharp edge from which the spark can arc from. If the edges are rounded, the arc is less consistent. This is why i always push the Iridium plugs, because they wear slower and have a very small electrode from which the spark can arc easily, even when slightly worn.
2. As the electrode and ground strap erode, the gap opens up. If you were already very close to running the largest gap you could with your set-up, as these two variables erode, the gap will open and eventually be too big for the spark to jump, under load.
Also, the stock ignition system will have a hard timing keeping up at high boost levels and rich AFRs, this will require a smaller gap, which in turn, hinders the spark plugs ability to expose the ignition source to the fuel mixture. You want to run the largest gap you can get away with. Unfortunately, the stock system has it's limits and you'll eventually need to upgrade the ignition system in order to be able to run more gap.
Take my advice and go get a set of NGK Iridium IX plugs.
For non-MIVEC use:
Protruding tip: BPR*EIX(insert plug temp here*)
Non-Protruding tip: BR*EIX(insert plug temp here*)
side note: A non-protruding spark plug will run in half heat ranges. So a BR8EIX plug will be a heat range of 8.5(1.5 colder heat range than stock), whereas a BPR8EIX will be a heat range or 8(1 heat range cooler than stock). The higher the number, the colder the heat range. Stock heat range is 7 BTW(BPR7EIX).
The spark plug has two main jobs. 1. To ignite the air/fuel mixture. 2. To release heat from the combustion chamber through the plugs insulator and thus into the plug and heat sinked into the head where the coolant can transfer the heat away from the head. You must also make sure you're correctly torquing the plug, to insure a proper seat from which the plug can heat sink to the head.
Originally Posted by iTune
plugs that are too hot a heat range will not allow for the heat to escape the combustion chamber. The plug has two main purposes. Ignite the air/fuel mixture and transfer heat from the combustion chamber. It's important to remember spark plugs do not create heat, they only remove heat. The spark plug works as a heat exchanger by pulling unwanted thermal energy away from the combustion chamber, and transferring the heat to the engine's cooling
system. The heat range is defined as a plug's ability to dissipate heat. Make sure the plugs are properly torqued as a improper seat will not allow heat to transfer to the head. The temperature of the spark plug's firing end must be kept low enough to prevent pre-ignition, but high enough to prevent fouling. This is called "Thermal Performance", and is determined by the heat range selected. The insulator nose length, gas volume around the insulator nose, the materials/construction of the center electrode and porcelain insulator all determine the plugs heat range. Improper gap can play a huge roll in knock as well. You want to run the most gap possible to better expose the spark to the ignition, but if you run too large of a gap, you will have misfires. If you run too small of a gap, you will increase firing end temp and thus combustion temps/pressures. you must reduce the gap about .004" for every 50 hp you add as a general rule of thumb
system. The heat range is defined as a plug's ability to dissipate heat. Make sure the plugs are properly torqued as a improper seat will not allow heat to transfer to the head. The temperature of the spark plug's firing end must be kept low enough to prevent pre-ignition, but high enough to prevent fouling. This is called "Thermal Performance", and is determined by the heat range selected. The insulator nose length, gas volume around the insulator nose, the materials/construction of the center electrode and porcelain insulator all determine the plugs heat range. Improper gap can play a huge roll in knock as well. You want to run the most gap possible to better expose the spark to the ignition, but if you run too large of a gap, you will have misfires. If you run too small of a gap, you will increase firing end temp and thus combustion temps/pressures. you must reduce the gap about .004" for every 50 hp you add as a general rule of thumb
Originally Posted by iTune
i would actually recommend started with a larger gap. try .030 first, then gap down from there if you run into mis-fires.
You want to run the largest gap possible to properly expose the spark to the mixture. If you run too big, the spark with actually be blown out, causing misfires, if you run too small, the firing end temp increases, thus does the cylinder temps/pressures. Rule of thumb is to start larger and work your way down until you no longer have misfires. Trust me on this. All engines are different, the gap requirements will change from engine to engine, setup to setup.
Heat range will effect a lot as well, the colder the heat range, the more fouling becomes a problem, make sure your set-up warrants a colder heat range plug. Look at my original post on page one for refference.
You want to run the largest gap possible to properly expose the spark to the mixture. If you run too big, the spark with actually be blown out, causing misfires, if you run too small, the firing end temp increases, thus does the cylinder temps/pressures. Rule of thumb is to start larger and work your way down until you no longer have misfires. Trust me on this. All engines are different, the gap requirements will change from engine to engine, setup to setup.
Heat range will effect a lot as well, the colder the heat range, the more fouling becomes a problem, make sure your set-up warrants a colder heat range plug. Look at my original post on page one for refference.
Originally Posted by iTune
Moving on, if you want the BEST plug possible, use the NGK Iridium IX BPR7EIX plugs. They are top notch plugs that will last a good bit longer than cooper electrode plugs. Like previously stated, start at .032 and work your way down. You probably won't be able to run .032, but you won't know until you try. If .032 causes misfires, gap them down to .031 and so on and so forth. This won't hurt anything as you are trying to find YOUR engines optimal gap, not deadbeatrec's optimal gap setting.
Originally Posted by iTune
a misfire will register a lean spike if your WB has a high sample rate(innovate LC-1/LM-1) but it may not be enough for you to see unless it was a serious/consecutive misfire.
A misfire can also be picked up by the knock sensor and registerd as knock, or the most common way to tell if you are missing is a loss in power(shaky torque curve) and a actual "mis" which can be felt and heard along with backfiring..ect.
If your gap is too large, you will most likely get a misfire across all cylinders, in which this case you will deffinatly pick this up using a high sample rate WBo2(fast high spiking lean conditions) and it would be felt and would deffinatly show up on the dynograph.
For you power(not boost), i would open back up to about .028 and start from there. You may not be able to run .028 but you won't know until you try.
For gapping these plugs, use a feeler type gauge(can be bought at pep-boy, advanced autoparts..ect) and be careful not to hit the small electrode on anything(including the feeler gauge). On a feeler gauge type gapper, be carefull on to shove the feelin inbetween the ground strap and the electrode, if the gap is too small for the feeler used, don't shove it in there. To open up gap, use the end of the feeler gauge to stick on the side of the ground strap(in the curve of the ground strap) and slowly and very lightly pull the ground strap out. Check the gap again and repeat. If you have gone too far(take your time!), take a block of solid wood, lay it on a desk or ground and tap the ground strap of the plug on the block of wood very very lightly and then check the gap. If it's still too large for the gap you want, do it again until it's perfect. This take practice to find the right force used to move the ground strap little by little. The key is to go slow and light. If you went too far(gap too small) use the feeler gauge gapper to open it back up. Repeat process until it's where you want it(in your case start at .028). Do this for all 4 plugs. Making sure your measurements are perfect for each plug. Don't allow there to be different gaps on different plug, like saying.....thats close enough. Take your time and make them all perfect.
With practice and learning how to know what a misfire is, you will get it right.
A misfire can also be picked up by the knock sensor and registerd as knock, or the most common way to tell if you are missing is a loss in power(shaky torque curve) and a actual "mis" which can be felt and heard along with backfiring..ect.
If your gap is too large, you will most likely get a misfire across all cylinders, in which this case you will deffinatly pick this up using a high sample rate WBo2(fast high spiking lean conditions) and it would be felt and would deffinatly show up on the dynograph.
For you power(not boost), i would open back up to about .028 and start from there. You may not be able to run .028 but you won't know until you try.
For gapping these plugs, use a feeler type gauge(can be bought at pep-boy, advanced autoparts..ect) and be careful not to hit the small electrode on anything(including the feeler gauge). On a feeler gauge type gapper, be carefull on to shove the feelin inbetween the ground strap and the electrode, if the gap is too small for the feeler used, don't shove it in there. To open up gap, use the end of the feeler gauge to stick on the side of the ground strap(in the curve of the ground strap) and slowly and very lightly pull the ground strap out. Check the gap again and repeat. If you have gone too far(take your time!), take a block of solid wood, lay it on a desk or ground and tap the ground strap of the plug on the block of wood very very lightly and then check the gap. If it's still too large for the gap you want, do it again until it's perfect. This take practice to find the right force used to move the ground strap little by little. The key is to go slow and light. If you went too far(gap too small) use the feeler gauge gapper to open it back up. Repeat process until it's where you want it(in your case start at .028). Do this for all 4 plugs. Making sure your measurements are perfect for each plug. Don't allow there to be different gaps on different plug, like saying.....thats close enough. Take your time and make them all perfect.
With practice and learning how to know what a misfire is, you will get it right.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Last edited by iTune; May 16, 2010 at 10:47 PM.
Not really always true. You can only go so cold anyway.
I'd replace those plugs anyway, .023 is fine for gap. You could probably run more but its not the reason its knocking.
Something seems to be pissing off your knock sensor it seems at 23 psi. Whats your IDC's btw, any idea?
So junior didn't tune it this time, can we just know who did so we aren't suggesting things that aren't needed or not.
I'd replace those plugs anyway, .023 is fine for gap. You could probably run more but its not the reason its knocking.
Something seems to be pissing off your knock sensor it seems at 23 psi. Whats your IDC's btw, any idea?
So junior didn't tune it this time, can we just know who did so we aren't suggesting things that aren't needed or not.
Evolving Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 243
Likes: 1
From: Jamaica W.I.
Maybe give Big Al a call?! He's up in your area and first brought up the question about the Phantom knock issue AFAIK. But I doubt that its your prob though. Give him a call if you have'nt already!