K24/K20 vs. 4G64 max rpms???
May i ask ive tried reading and searching but havent found a good asnwer for me why cant the 2.3 rev so high? I understand it has to do with pistons speed and what not but still kinda lost on that subject..
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Joined: Jul 2009
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Sounds to me like it is a bearing/oiling issue not necessarily the head. Running 4th out at 8500+ seems like the common problem are the bearings not the piston speed like everyone has been saying on the forums. It always confused me as I knew k24s were similar.
You can also fix all the oiling issues with a modified wet sump (i.e. - conventional) for more capacity by going deeper, a better pickup tube, and a windage tray. I have no oil pressure dips at all on the track and have logged this every pass for about 4 years. It is just now that I have everything sorted out to where I don't see some fall-off somewhere, just a constant 85-90psi. The center main bearing issue is not starvation or aeration. As far as I can tell, all our pump issues are oil pan and pickup related. If you run the pump without oil or with interruptions in the oil supply, it eats itself up. The honda engines definitely have a better developed oil sump/pickup system in OEM trim. This also takes its toll on turbo bearings.
Kevin
Kevin
That makes sense, as the high g-forces associated with rapid launches and increased acceleration would seem to overwhelm the 4G63's short, lightly baffled pan and sump. Couple that with the relatively unregulated factory oil supply to the head, and the notion of the pump gulping pockets of air isn't unbelievable.
Just because you don't know how to apply mathematics to engines doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Go buy John B. Heywoods book. He's done more in his lifetime with engines than MANY others...and he's understood it. It's an excellent read for an aspiring student. As you'll learn most everything can be modeled by physics, including valvetrain. (enter...a book you should read... http://books.sae.org/book-r-339 ) Guess what? Both of these books are FULL of equations that model engine behavior. They've been verified by actual testing and a lifetime of research.
You show your true ignorance in this statement. Do you know who Kevin Kiggly is? Look him up on google. Then re-read this thread. He's a REAL, PRACTICING ENGINEER, that races THESE ENGINES. Not a student spouting off about what he's going to do.
F=MA, that's the reason why your rod goes through your block at that RPM. We're discussing why the 100mm stroked Evo engines don't perform like the K24 Honda engine at 9k RPM. The difference is the ability of the cylinder head to flow air. Ever heard of GTSuite? Ricardo Wave? If you have, might you know what the basis of all those calculations are based on?
You show your true ignorance in this statement. Do you know who Kevin Kiggly is? Look him up on google. Then re-read this thread. He's a REAL, PRACTICING ENGINEER, that races THESE ENGINES. Not a student spouting off about what he's going to do.
F=MA, that's the reason why your rod goes through your block at that RPM. We're discussing why the 100mm stroked Evo engines don't perform like the K24 Honda engine at 9k RPM. The difference is the ability of the cylinder head to flow air. Ever heard of GTSuite? Ricardo Wave? If you have, might you know what the basis of all those calculations are based on?
And of course I know who Kiggly is (a real engineer...no ****, he's also a smart one who doesn't sit on this forum and ask dumb questions - he's solving them in real life as well as paper, more than you can say for 80% of the people who are engineers.), also Curt Brown and half the other people who know what they're doing. I'm going to stop talking right there because it won't help anything.
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See there you go again...taking the thread off topic which with my response is gonan cause everyone to jump down my throat.
Oh well. Choosing to build an NA motor is just that a choice, it is not an excuse for not making power. Drop the CR and throw a turbo on it and make more power then.
If I got beat by a 454 I wouldn't say "Well you have like 8 liters" I chose the platform and build I chose now its on me to make power with it not use my choice as an excuss for why I lost.
Oh well. Choosing to build an NA motor is just that a choice, it is not an excuse for not making power. Drop the CR and throw a turbo on it and make more power then.
If I got beat by a 454 I wouldn't say "Well you have like 8 liters" I chose the platform and build I chose now its on me to make power with it not use my choice as an excuss for why I lost.
a local DSM'er who used to work at slowboy has recently taught me a few tricks. His setup is a 2g eclipse with an aluminum rod 6 bolt bottom end and jim forrester race head and supporting. he is running a 4202r on the street on e85. He is hitting the limits of the GM blowthrough at 48 psi. Jesse did everything himself including tunning and engine building/ fabrication. I pretty much take advice he gives me as gospel, he told me to use VR1 20w50 to keep my oil pump alive at high rpms. I Agree it is weak that the oil pump is turning twice crank speed.
The oil pump drive gear doesnt turn at twice the crank speed it turns at either 1.33 or 1.66 times crank speed I forget which. The oil pump driven gear does run at 2x crank speed. Thats why you have to rotate the engine 3x's for the oil pump sprocket to line up to the timing marks and 6x's to get the B/S to line up.
with the oil starvation issue, has anyone had experience with an accusump setup w/ or w/out an ams wet sump pan? the accusumps are designed to maintain oil psi to prevent starvation to the bearings, and is much cheaper than a dry sump setup.
My biggest LOL in this thread is that the K20 is a lesser engine. As for the debate Honda head design owns as per a lot of the tuning articles and such I have read on the k24/k20 set up
TedB hit an interesting point about the turbo K-series not revving out as high. There aren't too many N/A 4G based race cars out there, maybe an N/A 2.4L could reliably rev out to 10k where the added stress from the boost causes problems?
I haven't kept up with what the Honda guys are doing, but when they first started using the K-series in high-boost/high power they had serious issues keeping them together. The Clutch Master Integra came out and pulled like 167mph on one of their first passes when the fastest B-series (in the SFWD Class) at the time was like 161mph. They immediately got hit with a reduced turbo size and a weight penalty, but that car was eating bearings every other pass. I think it took them a while to figure out the problem.
Any of you ex-Honda guys know the problem they ended up having and how they fixed it?
I haven't kept up with what the Honda guys are doing, but when they first started using the K-series in high-boost/high power they had serious issues keeping them together. The Clutch Master Integra came out and pulled like 167mph on one of their first passes when the fastest B-series (in the SFWD Class) at the time was like 161mph. They immediately got hit with a reduced turbo size and a weight penalty, but that car was eating bearings every other pass. I think it took them a while to figure out the problem.
Any of you ex-Honda guys know the problem they ended up having and how they fixed it?
Now that I think about ALL the high hp turbo hondas around here are b18's or b16's, well atleast the ones that are turning 10k plus. Theres not many k's around here but one that I know of is only turning around 8-8.5k on 5 psi and spanks slightly modded evo's and sti's all day.